Scott Derrickson's The Black Phone

In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we continue our accidental-but-now-definitely-intentional basement series with Scott Derrickson’s 2021 supernatural horror-thriller The Black Phone, based on the Joe Hill short story. We unpack the film’s very Stephen “Kingian” mix of coming-of-age trauma, small-town fear, ghostly intervention, and very bad decisions approaching weirdos in windowless vans. We discuss Finney and Gwen’s bond, the horror already inside their home, the 1970s stranger-danger atmosphere, Ethan Hawke’s deeply unsettling performance as The Grabber, and why the film works so well by leaving some of its worst horrors implied rather than shown. We also talk about how clever this film is in the way the many failed escape attempts become useful later, and why every clue in this basement escape room matters.

Content & Spoiler Warning:

This episode includes discussion of child abduction, family violence, alcoholism, bullying, physical violence involving children and teenagers, murder, grief, suicide references, ghosts, confinement, implied harm to children, and frightening basement imagery. We also discuss domestic abuse and substance use in a way that recognises the harm caused without reducing those issues to simple villainy or suggesting that one dramatic event can magically “fix” addiction. And of course, we spoil The Black Phone.

Palate Cleanser:

For sports fans, keep hope alive. Sometimes the Knicks win, sometimes Lewis Hamilton wins his first race with Ferrari, sometimes Queensland wins State of Origin, and sometimes your team actually gives you a reason to believe in something other than dread, basements and serial killers.

Also, go back and watch The Hills or The Soup for a dose of early-2000s pop culture chaos.

And for something more meaningful, read “Millions of Women Are Left Out of Menopause’s Moment” from The New York Times, written by a friend of Caroline’s.

Recommendations:

For more Ethan Hawke:

Reality Bites
Sinister
The Purge
Before Sunrise, Before Sunset and Before Midnight
Dead Poets Society
Gattaca
Boyhood

For more Scott Derrickson horror:

The Exorcism of Emily Rose
Sinister
Black Phone 2 - not as clean or strong as the first film, but still worth a watch if you want more of  Ethan Hawke as the Grabber.

For more basement horror, kids with powers, and “beneath the surface” dread:

See our earlier episodes on Mindhunter,  The Silence of the Lambs, Penpal by Dathan Auerbach, The Devil in the White City, The Cask of Amontillado, The Sixth Sense, and Stranger Things.

We haven’t covered these yet (all on the list), but they fit the theme:

The Babadook
The Orphanage
The Texas Chain Saw Massacre
The Shining
It
Toy Story 4 — yes, somehow, for the creepy doll energy.

For coming-of-age survival stories with Stephen King or Spielberg energy:

Stand by Me
E.T.
The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon by Stephen King
Boy Swallows Universe — novel or Netflix series, with bonus Brisbane connection.

For more true crime and profiling connections:

Dateline’s “True Confession” episode on the Angie Dodge case
Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart
The Witness
Cases connected to John Wayne Gacy, Jacob Wetterling, Etan Patz, and the Rochester Alphabet Murders  (trigger warning: these are real cases involving children).

Random Connections:

Home Alone for basement fear and sprinting up the stairs like something is behind you.

Dazed and Confused for the 1970s atmosphere and very punchable bullies..

Return to Oz and The Secret of NIMH for childhood films that had no business being as scary as they were.

The Wire for a more grounded depiction of substance use and recovery.

Homework:

Listen to Radio Rental, Volume One (episodes 1-6). We are moving from supernatural basement phones and 1970s child abduction into true creepy stories, eerie encounters and the kind of “this happened to a friend of a friend” dread that makes you check your locks twice.

And remember: do not approach the black van. Do not help the magician with his groceries. Do not go to the second location. And if a disconnected phone starts ringing in a murder basement, answer it.

Transcript

Anne 0:11

Welcome back to drawn to Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you're spooked every time a windowless van drives by, we're here for you. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books

Caroline 0:26

My name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things

Anne 0:30

So Caroline, about your basement

Caroline 0:32

Yay. My basement growing up was legendary. As we talked about in the Mindhunter episode, it was very '70s. it had green and yellow and brown, like, plaid carpeting that was, like, the carpeting that's not really carpeting. It's, like, a layer of fabric in an ugly pattern. And then p- wood paneled walls, and then the back wall had these giant, sideways U-shaped, like,, kind of rainbow shapes, but if the rainbow was all shades of brown and green. Um,

Anne 1:03

Of course

Caroline 1:03

and it, and just a tiny little window, and, a red, canvas-y chair. I had a beanbag and a lava lamp and posters everywhere, and Bilco doors to sneak out through.

Anne 1:14

a movie down I definitely remember watching a movie down there at one point

Caroline 1:17

When I went to college, my mom renovated it, so it became the peach pit we called it, because I'm not a tuna fan. she like painted it peachy color and put, like a fake wood linoleum flooring on top because the, I'm sure that fabric was glued by something toxic. Asbestos probably.

Anne 1:37

So ugly, but not scary

Caroline 1:39

Not scary, no, fun.

Anne 1:41

I feel like I remember the unfinished part of your basement being

Caroline 1:44

Yeah, there, there was like

Anne 1:45

there for some

Caroline 1:46

two doors and it, like there was like an oil tank area. I don't think I stepped foot in there until we were moving out

Anne 1:52

Well, mine was very creepy, very unfinished. It had this big central pillar that I felt like was big enough to hide a monster, right? So like anytime I was down there, I was like, "The monster's on the other side of the pillar." Full of clutter, but our washing machine and dryer were down there, so I had to time down there and I definitely remember, sprinting up those stairs with, a monster at my heel on multiple occasions.

Caroline 2:12

Very Home Alone

Anne 2:13

yeah, it was. The furnace was down there, too. Well, the reason I ask is because we are continuing our basement or beneath the surface series that started kind of organically with Devil in the White City, followed by The Cask of Amontillado, Silence of the Lambs, Mindhunter, and now we're moving on to Scott Derrickson's The Black Phone, which is based on the Joe Hill short story. Before we get into it, spoiler and trigger warning, there is alcoholism, child abuse, including a very disturbing scene of a child being whipped that felt real. There's blunt force trauma to the head of another child, bullying, extreme fistfights between adolescents and teens that are like, "Whoa, kids, take it down a notch," of a victim by a serial killer, abduction, the implication of the torture, potential sexual assault, and murder of children, strangulation, broken bones, even if it's deserved, and ghosts. as usual, we will be spoiling this movie So here's what The Black Phone is about. Scott Derrickson's twenty twenty-one coming-of-age supernatural serial killer film with heart introduces us to brother and sister Finney and Gwen, who are walking on eggshells with their alcoholic and abusive father sometime after their mother died by suicide. the danger is not just at home. School is a war zone with violent bullies targeting Finn, who, unlike his sister, isn't great about standing up for himself and fighting back. what's worse is their Colorado town is being stalked by a killer dubbed The Grabber, who's abducting adolescent boys. children have gone missing, including Bruce Yamada, a good sport Finney almost struck out playing Little League, and his friend Robin, a tough kid who fights back against the bullies and protects Finn. Despite his fear of the killer stalking the town, Finney approaches a very unsettling man in a black van to help him with his spilled groceries and awakens in The Grabber's basement with little more than a dirty mattress on the floor and a disconnected black phone on the cement wall. The Grabber, played chillingly by Ethan Hawke, plays mind games with him, watching Finney sleep, leaving the door unlocked, daring him to attempt escape. Meanwhile, Finney's sister, Gwen, who has a touch of the shining, has dreams of The Grabber and his past victims that slowly lead her closer to Finn. but there's more paranormal activity than just Gwen's dreams. The disconnected black phone rings, connecting Finney to the ghosts of the five murdered victims of The Grabber, who provide clues on how to escape. Although each call from the murdered boys seems to lead to a dead end, every clue and hint ultimately helps Finn stand up for himself, fight back, and not only escape but kill The Grabber, putting an end to his reign of terror. That is, until the sequel, Black Phone 2. So adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline 4:36

I was gonna say like classic, it's got like a classic vibe, nostalgic slasher

Anne 4:41

Yeah, I wanted to create an adjective for this. In the past, we've talked about, Dickensian and Orwellian and, I think we need Kingian or King-esque to describe something with Stephen King vibes. It's got that coming of age, like, Stand By Me feel to it in a way.

Caroline 4:56

not as old as Stam- more like Dazed and Confused age.

Anne 4:59

Well, the

Caroline 5:00

Yeah.

Anne 5:01

I feel like that was very

Caroline 5:02

Yeah.

Anne 5:02

right? They've got that, Free Rider

Caroline 5:04

We-

Anne 5:04

beginning,

Caroline 5:05

many movies start with free ride?

Anne 5:06

You know? Finn looks like the type of kid that would be... Who was Ben Affleck's character in,

Caroline 5:14

Oh, yeah.

Anne 5:15

He looks like the type of kid that be the target of O'Bannion in Dazed and Confused, for sure. is there a bigger dick in the history of film than Ben Affleck in Dazed and Confused?

Caroline 5:23

Ugh. I mean, he's up there

Anne 5:24

Yeah, I think, Kingian because it's this survival story, it, of ingenuity and, like, the collective power of the victims to fight back. and I cried a little bit when Finn and Gwen hug after he escapes And the fact that he it not just for himself, but for them,

Caroline 5:40

Mm-hmm.

Anne 5:40

Like, for those five murdered boys, which reminds me of Eddie, telling Steve to get Vecna for Chrissy in Season 4 of Stranger Things it

Caroline 5:47

Spoiler alert for Stranger Things.

Anne 5:50

Stranger Things has been out long

Caroline 5:52

It's been out. It's been out.

Anne 5:53

if you're... it was such a surprise hit for me when I watched it around the time it came out because based on that cover, I thought it was gonna be more like a Saw slasher kinda movie, which I, can get down with a slasher. I love a slasher. But it, I feel like what you said, that nostalgic makes it very different from what it looks like from the marketing

Caroline 6:11

I agree. And there's a lot of gore, but it's not, like, except for the fistfights and, the kids beating each other up. That's pretty active gore. But there's not people actively being injured as much as you see the result of their injuries

Anne 6:23

Yes, and it leaves it up to our imagination as to exactly what happened, which is something we've talked about a lot, between Park, Silence of the Lambs, Jaws, and, the horror is in the implication of what the grabber to those boys and then intended to do to Finney.

Caroline 6:41

Mm-hmm.

Anne 6:41

I found this Joe Hill quote not necessarily about this, but it covers several things we love. Joe Hill, is the author of the Black Phone story that this is based on. the shark in Jaws is the most terrifying bad guy in the whole history of film because he's almost never on camera. We almost never see him. I think if you look at a character like Hannibal Lecter, Hannibal Lecter was never more terrifying than in Red Dragon, the first book in which he appears, and he's only in it for about 14 pages. He's almost as scary in Silence of the Lambs, where we only get him for about 25 pages, and he's on screen with Jodie Foster for only about 12 minutes. you walk away from Silence of the Lambs, it's your memory of Hannibal Lecter that dominates. more we know about him, the less terrifying he becomes because we get more comfortable with him." And then he goes on to talk about Star Wars. I think you can see the same with Darth Vader, who's the baddest ass in all the universe in the first two Star Wars films. And then we had the prequels, and we found out that he was a whiny, pathetic teenager with mommy issues, and he just wasn't frightening anymore." So I had to share that because I was like, Jaws, Star Wars, Silence of the Lambs, like, these are my favorite things

Caroline 7:41

I take issue with, whiny, pathetic teenager, if you've watched Clone Wars

Anne 7:46

Okay, have not watched Clone Wars, but I don't take issue with the one to three criticism

Caroline 7:52

Yeah. not great in episo- not developed really in episodes one through three, and you get to, know a lot more about Anakin, through the series, which are cartoons, but they're really not for kids. You- uh, adults should watch them. They're really good. But anyway, one thing that's interesting about all that is sort of the symmetry with, we were talking about when you're kidnapped that you should identify yourself and, like, make yourself familiar to that person. It's sort of like the inverse of that, I guess the result is the same. once we understand a human as containing multitudes, your feeling about them changes, whether it be, someone you feared or someone you victimized,

Anne 8:29

Yeah, so if we know more about the killer that the killer contains multitudes, they become less scary

Caroline 8:35

and if you are a killer and you know more about your victim, you're less apt to victimize them.

Anne 8:40

Not necessarily with some of these terrible people, but

Caroline 8:43

Right

Anne 8:44

in terms of what they didn't show, I'm really glad they didn't show what happens because sexual violence, torture against children is definitely a no-go for me. Like, I don't wanna watch that.

Caroline 8:53

Yeah, 100%.

Anne 8:55

the anticipation

Caroline 8:55

I assumed there was a sexual element to this, but is there any evidence of that that I missed?

Anne 9:01

I think it's a fair assumption. he comes in and he's watching Phinney sleep, he sighs in a way that I found very sexual. And I think we know from watching

Caroline 9:10

Mindhunter, yeah.

Anne 9:11

just because a killer doesn't

Caroline 9:14

Perform the act, yeah.

Anne 9:15

mean there isn't a psychosexual component to it

Caroline 9:18

Right. Yes, good point

Anne 9:19

So given that we've talked about Joe Hill, we should talk about the creators a bit. do you know who Joe Hill is,

Caroline 9:26

No. The name sounds familiar though.

Anne 9:28

He's Stephen King's son

Caroline 9:30

I think I did know that once upon a time

Anne 9:32

I think he really deserves his accolades. I've read most of his books. I haven't read the most recent yet- one yet, King Sorrow, but he's a great storyteller, and he did take the pen name Joe Hill, and he queried his books traditionally because he wanted to make it without being in his dad's shadow. And apparently he was able to keep it a secret for about a decade before, it came out. So he did make it on his own, and I remember the first book I read by him was Horns, and I had no idea.

Caroline 9:55

that's cool.

Anne 9:57

I do have some sympathy for the criticism leveled at Nepo babies I'm a teacher raised by teachers, But I do think the difference is that as Holden dismissively says of being a teacher in Mindhunter, "Anyone can do it."

Caroline 10:12

Hmm.

Anne 10:12

Right? Doesn't mean it's easy, but you know, if you can get into college, you can become a teacher if you want to. There's no luck, But to become an actor, there is that element of luck

Caroline 10:20

Right.

Anne 10:21

that is removed, for Ethan Hawke's daughter, for example. Like, she's great, but she already has that connection

Caroline 10:26

Right.

Anne 10:26

And I'm sure there are plenty of people who are great who get a chance at being Robin in Stranger

Caroline 10:31

It's totally reasonable that, you would have a propensity to have a similar career as your parents. However, when that career is in a highly competitive and very low success, that desire doesn't turn into

Anne 10:48

writing

Caroline 10:49

then, yeah, it's hard to reconcile the disparity

Anne 10:53

Yeah. Well, so he said at some point while working on Nos4a2, which was one of his later books, felt myself relax about it. I'm really proud of my dad. I love my dad. He's one of my best friends. I love his books. Much of what I write, I write because of who my dad is and the things that I learned reading Stephen King novels." So I thought that was really sweet. They seem like they have a really relationship

Caroline 11:13

I think it's also important to, like, not deny that it's a part of your success. I think Ben Stiller had some sort hissy fit about being a nepo baby isn't isn't a leg up, and it's like, "Who the fuck are you kidding?" You know? And, um,

Anne 11:25

Up

Caroline 11:26

yeah. And then, Tori Spelling, who claimed for the longest time that she auditioned using a fake name and d- just totally earned that part on 90210, like, in your fucking dreams.

Anne 11:36

way

Caroline 11:37

You can't act for shit.

Anne 11:39

I respect the nepo babies who are s- talented, but also acknowledge the leg up

Caroline 11:44

Carrie Fisher, rest in peace.

Anne 11:46

so many more of them are than you realize once you look into it, right? and you know, he talks about watching his dad write every day, which you can find out more about if you wanna read On Writing by Stephen King. And I listened to an interview with him on this podcast called The Secret Life of Books, and he talks about his mother, Tabitha, who we t- discussed in our Carrie episode as saving

Caroline 12:05

Mm-hmm.

Anne 12:06

the original Carrie manuscript from the trash. instituted what he called, like, a Victorian tradition of passing a book around and reading it together as a family after dinner. like, they were a household that valued writing and stories, so it's kinda natural he would go in this way so if you wanna read that story, it is in 20th Century Ghosts, his collection of short stories, and he's got another short story in there called My Father's Mask it is the creepiest thing I've ever... of the creepiest things I've ever read. So good. The other creator is Scott Derrickson, director, and, Cargill, I believe, is the screenwriter who worked with him. They worked together. and I wanna just give a shout-out to Neil McRobert from Talking Scared and the Last Podcast on the Left. I got all this background information from those two interviews. so while I was listening to the interview with Scott Derrickson, I was putting my groceries in my car, and I was just sort of zoned out, as you do, listening to a podcast, unaware of my surroundings, and a man approached me in the parking lot, and as he came close, I was like, "This guy is gonna stuff me in the trunk of my car with my groceries, like, grab my keys, and take off." But he just wanted to tell me that God loves me, and he was actually

Caroline 13:08

Oh.

Anne 13:09

and not obnoxious about it. It's like, "Okay. Thank you." or maybe he was gonna kidnap me, and he backpedaled to God loves me when he realized I'd seen him

Caroline 13:16

Or maybe he's secretly part of the FBI, like in Clue when he says, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." He's like a door-to-door.

Anne 13:24

yes so Scott Derrickson on the Talking Scared interview, says this, I paused to write it down: Horror is a place where you can be artistically ambitious and deal in deep, powerful human themes, and real characters, and excellent performances." And I love that, you know, the idea that horror can be art and, more than just slashing people up, which can still be fun. So he's known also for Sinister, is scientifically considered the scariest film of all time. Have you heard about the science of scare study?

Caroline 13:52

Well, I've seen a bunch of slideshows of the scariest movies, and I think The Ring was up there, and I was like, if that's the scariest, I think I can handle anything," 'cause I wa- I didn't... I kinda laughed.

Anne 14:04

on whether you're... is testing, I think, heart rate,

Caroline 14:08

உம்,

Anne 14:08

h- heart rate spikes,

Caroline 14:09

உம்.

Anne 14:10

arguably is not a good test of scare because it might just be testing jump scare. Like, do you remember the scene in The Ring with the closet and the

Caroline 14:16

Oh, of course.

Anne 14:17

all

Caroline 14:17

Of...

Anne 14:18

that is one of the s- scariest things I've ever seen, and it

Caroline 14:20

Same, yeah.

Anne 14:22

would've spiked. But I guess maybe they're testing, like, how long is your heart rate elevated and how high does it go and things like that. he's got, I think, two in the top 10, The Exorcism of Emily Rose, and then the other movies that at least are in the most recent typed top 10 are the Smile movies, Hereditary, which we've covered, Talk to Me, The Conjuring, Insidious, all of which I love. Skinamarink, which I did not. I turned off after about half an hour. he's also done a Marvel movie. Did you know that?

Caroline 14:47

What Marvel?

Anne 14:48

Doctor Strange.

Caroline 14:49

Oh, not my favorite.

Anne 14:50

of that one? Okay. I don't think I've seen that one.

Caroline 14:53

No, there's more than one Doctor Strange movie, but, that whole element is not my favorite, I guess I'd say

Anne 15:00

I, most recently, I think he's done The Gorge with, Anya Taylor-Joy. it looks interesting. It's like a portal to hell or something. I haven't watched it yet, but I'm interested. One interesting thing I learned about him, and you may scoff at this, but he actually believes in demonic possession. So he's made two possession films, Delivers from Evil and The Exorcism of Emily Rose, and he, while researching for, the Emily Rose one, he listened to, like, 38 hours of a so-called real exorcism, and it has made him a believer. And he points out from anthropological perspective, every culture has they consider to be possession

Caroline 15:36

Hmm.

Anne 15:37

Are you scoffing?

Caroline 15:38

Yes.

Anne 15:38

Thought you would be. Well as we've discussed, as a recovering Catholic, it's the thing that find the scariest of all the horror genres, possession films, so

Caroline 15:48

you just gotta read up on every religion that has exists and the likelihood of the Catholics having gotten it right

Anne 15:55

Oh, I don't think the Catholics got it right,

Caroline 15:56

How do they exorcize anyone?

Anne 15:58

Well, I think there's exorcism rituals from every

Caroline 16:01

pagans and stuff?

Anne 16:03

Yeah, yeah,

Caroline 16:03

Yeah, got it.

Anne 16:04

not, like, Catholic exorcism is the way to go. It's that demonic or some sort of possession

Caroline 16:10

yeah.

Anne 16:11

occurs in every culture, like from the ancient Egyptians on, probably earlier. This is something that humans have believed and come up with rituals to treat. Is it schizophrenia? But then how do you explain the people who get cured,

Caroline 16:24

Mm-hmm

Anne 16:25

something interesting. Maybe we'll do Emily Rose at some point. That's very scary his background is really woven into the film. he says his father was abusive. He's from Colorado, so the setting and characters were inspired by his childhood, he says he went to school with every single one of those boys.

Caroline 16:40

Hmm

Anne 16:41

all the before stuff, like with Finn and Gwen and the fist fights, with the dad, none of that is in the Joe Hill short story. The short story starts with Finn getting picked up

Caroline 16:52

Oh, interesting.

Anne 16:53

Grabber.

Caroline 16:53

oh, okay. One thing I will amend is it's Colorado

Anne 16:56

Oh, yeah.

Caroline 16:57

they start writing us and getting upset. I mean, I feel like I sound silly when I say it that way, but that's how they say it, I guess.

Anne 17:03

Yeah. the other one is Appalachia instead

Caroline 17:06

Yeah

Anne 17:06

Appalachia.

Caroline 17:07

I actually have never been corrected by someone from there, but I listen to a lot of podcasts that mention being corrected.

Anne 17:14

Okay.

Caroline 17:15

And I'm going there tomorrow, so I will see if I get corrected while I'm there

Anne 17:19

gonna not say the word again because I don't know if I'm capable of saying it that

Caroline 17:22

Yeah.

Anne 17:23

Colorado.

Caroline 17:23

definitely been training myself.

Anne 17:25

I feel really weird.

Caroline 17:26

I've been saying is Colorado. I guess that's how I'm supposed to say it, like all one word.

Anne 17:30

what do you mean a cu-

Caroline 17:31

every time I say Colorado, I say Colorado. I guess that's how I'm supposed to say it, like the whole sentence every time.

Anne 17:37

okay, okay. So

Caroline 17:38

the name of the state

Anne 17:40

asterisk.

Caroline 17:41

Exactly.

Anne 17:42

So context, setting, set in 1978 in what appears to be a blue-collar, socioeconomically depressed suburb. Lots of single-story homes separated by jagged chain link fences, which Derrickson talks about being, his image of his neighborhood growing up, the chain link fences, and that was something he really wanted to right.

Caroline 18:00

I've never seen that before. Have you seen a neighborhood like that? For, like, walking through

Anne 18:04

the walking through, no.

Caroline 18:05

Yeah, but I've never seen, like, a walkway that is a chain link fence walkway. That was very unique to me. But maybe that's something out west that they have when there's, like, more land, Cause usually there's just buildings

Anne 18:16

if it's something to do with snow.

Caroline 18:17

Oh, maybe.

Anne 18:18

it

Caroline 18:19

Where you shovel?

Anne 18:20

I don't know

Caroline 18:20

I'll ask when I get there tomorrow.

Anne 18:22

Find out for

Caroline 18:23

Okay

Anne 18:23

and 1978, very much within the so-called serial killer heyday, which we discussed in our last episode. I didn't make this connection at the time. I chose this because I was like, "Basements, I want another basement thing, and it's a serial killer." But then watching it after Silence of the Lambs and Mindhunter, I'm like, "Oh, there's more connections." just like we saw with Cask of Amontillado and Silence of the Lambs, Rosemary's Baby and Yellow Wallpaper. So there's the '70s setting, and there's also a you're at the wrong house thing that happens in Silence of the Lambs. So I always love that when you're like, "Oh, more connections than I thought."

Caroline 18:54

Yeah, me too. Hmm

Anne 18:55

Oh, there's a picture of Poe in the background of Gwen's class

Caroline 18:58

Oh

Anne 18:59

So it's kind of aesthetically and thematically aligned with Mindhunter, and it's violent, Like, this is what you pointed out to me, the thing we couldn't wait to talk about was what kind of violent town is this? Like, the kids and the fistfights. have you ever seen a fistfight?

Caroline 19:13

No. I grew up in a town where, like, contact sports were not really the... they don't want balls flying at their noses type crew. So no, I think I've seen one person get punched or slapped multiple times, but never a fight, like, continuing. You know? There's like a one hit and then everyone dissipates.

Anne 19:32

It is not like people pummeling skulls into the ground until a face would be pulverized. movie fist fights, like, if you did that to someone the way Robin, who goes too far, you know, like one punch can kill. That's, that's a big campaign here in Australia, or it has been. Like you know, if you pummel someone like that, they're- I don't think they're gonna be okay

Caroline 19:49

I mean, Now and Then has it, A Christmas Story has it. Like, there's always these fight scenes where everyone's gathered around watching, and I was like, would this really happen? You wouldn't have anyone, like, stopping to, support their friend? Or I, I don't know. It seems so bizarre to me

Anne 20:05

I, I hope it's exaggerated to some extent, but Derrickson's refers to his own upbringing in the '70s.. He says there was a lot of domestic violence there was bullying there was fist fights This is a quote, "I grew up in an area of North Denver that was pretty violent." Well, I just said everything there. A lot of bullying, a lot of fighting, a lot of kids were bleeding all the time. was also right after Ted Bundy had come through Colorado,

Caroline 20:25

Colorado.

Anne 20:26

and it was right after Ted Bundy had come through that state, and the Manson murders had just happened. So He was, like, scared for his life all the time. And also he, had a friend's mother who was raped and murdered. he said, and I quote, "The feeling you're gonna die from a strange killer was everywhere when I was a kid." So walked around in a state of fear, which I remember, were a little bit younger, but, like the stranger danger fear in the '80s, just constantly worried I was gonna get kidnapped

Caroline 20:54

Yeah. Did you ever have, like, a meeting at your school about that?

Anne 20:57

Oh, definitely.

Caroline 20:58

like

Anne 20:59

I don't think we had any predators in our area you know, like we didn't have a Ted Bundy come through or anything. But we did have a murder in my town, but it was, between people who knew each other. But a little girl did get

Caroline 21:08

No, 'cause

Anne 21:09

about that

Caroline 21:09

we had at our elementary school there was once like a all school meeting where they gave us the make and model of a car to avoid

Anne 21:17

wow.

Caroline 21:17

Now my mom is gone, so I can't ask her. Well, I'm, in Colorado, which is how I'm supposed to say it, I'm visiting friends from elementary school, so I will ask them if they remember this, if any... I, I don't know if it was any like substantiated And it might have been just a guy pulling over talking to kids who never actually took a kid. Uh, that was the impression I had was like, there's a guy being creepy with children. if you see this car, don't, Yeah.

Anne 21:40

All right, well, let's talk about some of the aesthetic features. First of all, I love the Blumhouse opening. They've got, like, an extended logo where you kind of are, like, backing out.

Caroline 21:50

Hmm.

Anne 21:50

and it's just an homage to horror. D- I don't know if you noticed it,

Caroline 21:52

I did not.

Anne 21:53

every time that comes up, I'm so excited. Like, it's woods. There's a bathtub with an arm hanging out, which feels very Shining, The Purge masks. and there's probably more Easter eggs that I didn't notice I also really liked the opening credits. Felt very true crime. There was, like, eerie sound, very hopeless, missing children posters fluttering, forgotten in the wind We've already talked about the music, Free Ride, there was some Pink Floyd. and then there was the use of Super 8 film. So Gwen's flashbacks all use Super 8, which is also used in Sinister. so it's that old-fashioned style of filmmaking, when a lot of people now would just use a filter, like they actually used Super 8 film. And we associate this with nostalgia, but in this case it's used to, to make it nightmarish

Caroline 22:34

Or both.

Anne 22:34

Or both. Yeah. foreshadowing, your arm is mint, Robin fighting, he says, "You gotta make it bloody,"

Caroline 22:40

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:40

and Finn does that at the end. So everything just comes together so well.

Caroline 22:45

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:45

Did you have any favorite tropes in this that you saw?

Caroline 22:48

I don't know. name some of the trips.

Anne 22:51

Kids on bikes

Caroline 22:52

Yeah

Anne 22:52

tropes. we get Bruce Yamada on the bike at the beginning, feel like it's subverting the trope because there's nothing nostalgic about that moment, whereas with like It, ET, Stranger Things, you get that nostalgia, that camaraderie. with all those things, you've got parents at home who are either going through it or abusive. Like,

Caroline 23:10

Mm-hmm. The dad.

Anne 23:12

Stand By Me, you know, the one who got his face burned, and River Phoenix's

Caroline 23:15

Oh,

Anne 23:15

too, like they both have parents. So but in th- but we never actually see their home life. But in this we see the home life, like we see what the dad is doing to these kids. Anyway, there's just something about adolescent tweens and horror and coming of age that just hits that spot for me

Caroline 23:31

he's LaChance. Teddy LaChance?

Anne 23:33

Yeah, Corey Feldman's

Caroline 23:34

Yeah.

Anne 23:35

I'm sure

Caroline 23:35

I keep wanting to call him, I keep calling, wanting to call him Mouth, but that's from Goonies. I think it's Teddy. I just remember LaChance 'cause the dump guy is like, "You're LaChance. Your dad burnt the pier off." Yeah.

Anne 23:46

yeah. There's also allusions to It because Gwen's wearing a raincoat at one point, and the black balloons and

Caroline 23:53

The balloons, yeah.

Anne 23:54

Apparently they thought about making it a clown, but they were like, "That's too on the nose."

Caroline 23:58

Yeah.

Anne 23:59

made him a magician instead

Caroline 24:00

guess the bathroom bullies is a trope

Anne 24:02

Yes. I was like, "Finn, why are you going in there? s- stand near a teacher. don't go, into the place where no one can see you."

Caroline 24:08

But I guess they thought the teachers just, like, wouldn't help them

Anne 24:11

I think there was that view or that feeling at the time that adults aren't there to help, like what's the

Caroline 24:16

Yeah, I guess that happened. We talked about that with El on the Stranger Things episode when she gets in that fight with that bitch girl, and the teacher's just, like, standing there

Anne 24:24

Not doing enough for sure. also a classroom scene, which we've talked about in the past. Like, I think there's classroom scenes in, um, Hereditary,

Caroline 24:32

Mm-hmm.

Anne 24:33

It Follows, probably other things we've covered. But I didn't find it as foreshadowing. they're dissecting frogs,

Caroline 24:40

Mm-hmm.

Anne 24:40

and I was just like, Does this have something to do with what happens?" I guess it's like the Grabber's gonna chop him up. I don't know,

Caroline 24:45

he's like l- giving eyes to the girl he has a crush on. I guess that was the point.

Anne 24:49

then we obviously have that starting in the classroom scene where he's worried will he have a partner, and at the end,

Caroline 24:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 24:55

Having said that, Black Phone which I did watch, and I went in with low expectations because I heard it's not as good, and I would agree it's not as good. But it made me really sad at the beginning because, you know, you kind of see Finney at the end and it's hopeful in Black Phone. But in Black Phone 2, basically he's the Robin. he's beating people up.

Caroline 25:14

Hmm.

Anne 25:14

He's traumatized. He's having PTSD, which makes sense,

Caroline 25:17

Sure.

Anne 25:17

he's gone through hell, but it was still like, "Oh, I, I just want Finney to be happy,"

Caroline 25:22

Hmm.

Anne 25:22

know? think the, starting with the Little League baseball game also, gives it a nostalgic feel.

Caroline 25:28

Yeah, that was also very Dazed and Confused. actually my first note is, like, are they middle school or junior high, I

Anne 25:34

They strike me as like 12

Caroline 25:35

Yeah, so they're, like, junior high but I was just like, I can't imagine, like, a bunch of girls being, like, at the baseball game and, like, caring. Girls and boys. Like, if you're not playing the sport, why would you care about your, like, school team? is an East Coast-

Anne 25:48

I went to like we all went to each other's

Caroline 25:50

Went

Anne 25:50

league

Caroline 25:51

you there to socialize or were you there to like root? everyone seems very invested in the outcome of this game, and I just don't think children, boy or girl I should say, are that invested in the outcome of the game as they are with like who's over there, who's over there,

Anne 26:03

Un- unless you're there to check out your crush

Caroline 26:04

Right, which at first I thought his sister had a crush on him, 'cause I didn't know it was his sister.

Anne 26:09

Yeah. Can I just circle back real quickly to something you said? You were talking about rooting for a team, do you know what root means in Australia?

Caroline 26:15

No

Anne 26:16

It means to do it, to fuck. every time I've ever said in the presence of my husband that I'm like rooting for the Red Sox, he makes so much fun of me. Cause to like have root means to do it

Caroline 26:27

me, that reminds me of the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me in my life, which is that we were near Gobbler's Knob in Pennsylvania,

Anne 26:35

Wait, is, is Gobbler's Knob, isn't that,

Caroline 26:37

Day.

Anne 26:37

Groundhog Day? Yes.

Caroline 26:39

I was like, "That's a cute word, knob." And I was, like, in the car with a bunch of British people, and they were all laughing at me

Anne 26:45

My other one that I messed up was when I was living in France, the word for baisser, like sss, is to lower. But baiser could mean to kiss or have sex. And I was, like, in a car, and I was like, "Could you lower the window?" But instead I said, "Baisse la fenêtre." And they all laughed at me because I was basically saying, "Can you fuck the window?" But anyway, maybe those girls were there for Bruce Yamada. Like, he seems like someone the girls would have had a crush on based on the way everyone's, like, smiling at him as he bikes past.

Caroline 27:15

Like he's the king of the world?

Anne 27:16

He's the king of the world. Bruce Yamada was such a nice kid, I think I- the first time I saw this, I thought Bruce was gonna be maybe the main character, because he's the one that, wins Finny doesn't strike him

Caroline 27:27

Right.

Anne 27:28

But I guess he's like the Chrissy Watkins, Casey Becker of this movie.

Caroline 27:31

Mm-hmm.

Anne 27:32

he just fades to black. But yeah, he's such a good sport, and he's the source of that great line like Your arm is mint

Caroline 27:37

Mmhmm

Anne 27:37

I love that yeah, and then his, like, growing up montage through Gwen's dream is really sad. they focus on him, like, saying the Pledge of Allegiance. So I think there's this focus on him like, the successful child of migrants, and how tough that can be, but that he has made it, and then that life is cut short. So sad. He was a good boy shall we talk about Finn himself?

Caroline 27:57

Sure.

Anne 27:58

What'd you think of Finn? Finny

Caroline 27:59

does he have the shine as well?

Anne 28:01

I think they both have the shining.

Caroline 28:02

Yeah.

Anne 28:03

I think the Grabber, Finn, and Gwen have the shining

Caroline 28:05

the Grabber does too

Anne 28:07

I think so, yeah. Because he says he used to hear the phone ring, and then at one point the boys, one of the victims says, he hears it, but he pretends he doesn't

Caroline 28:15

Oh

Anne 28:15

And then there's also that early on scene where Finn tells Gwen not to say the Grabber's name because there's obviously this urban legend going around that he can hear you, and that's how he chooses his victims. And then Finn does get grabbed,

Caroline 28:27

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:28

did he summon him even if the Grabber's not aware of it? and I'm with Finn on that. I would never say "Candyman" in a mirror, to this day, Like, why mess with that? and we know something supernatural is possible because we've got Gwen actually being led to the house, and getting the right clues, so yeah, I think they all potentially have a bit of the shining

Caroline 28:47

That's interesting. well, so what do I think of him? I didn't feel like he was very well developed, I felt like he was there to, like, be the person the story happens to, but he, I didn't feel like he had a ton of dimensions. it was very high level, like, you know, obviously his father is abusive. He's got this sister who she has more levels it seems like. and he's a nerd, but I didn't really, like, get a sense of him beyond that, like the kinds of things he's into. You know, I don't know.

Anne 29:14

he's like a recipient of the clues.

Caroline 29:17

Right

Anne 29:17

I mean, we get a little bit. we get him shooting off a rocket after the baseball game. He holds his little rocket,

Caroline 29:23

Oh yeah, the rocket. Yeah.

Anne 29:25

some dreams of something, right? And I guess that could be symbolic of his desire to escape this place. I don't know if he actually wants to be an astronaut or something, but, would agree that we don't get much beyond the relationship with the sister and that little rocket thing, And the fact that he is a kid who takes the licks but doesn't stand up for himself. but I loved him. I think he has the most, like, soulful eyes. and the character development we get is him and Gwen, right? that relationship. Like, I love Gwen's scene, which I wanna talk about, the scene she deserves a little supporting actor Oscar for, when she just goes and puts her head on his shoulder, and it's just so sad and sweet the way these two are in it together.

Caroline 30:04

Mm-hmm. he just seemed like a character that everything was happening to, but I couldn't really, get a lot of, what he was about from him.

Anne 30:11

I think he's just trying to survive in that

Caroline 30:13

Mm-hmm.

Anne 30:14

cutthroat environment. And he's, a bit of a wuss, helpless really when Gwen's getting beaten. He gets beat up himself after Robin's taken, he's legitimately scared by that bloody bathtub scene in the movie he's watching. And he's ju- I think it's a simple arc. Like, he's a kid who doesn't stand up for himself who learns to

Caroline 30:32

Mm-hmm.

Anne 30:32

I do wanna ask Finn, where's your survival instinct? five kids have gone missing and you're approaching that black van to help the guy with his groceries? Like, what are you thinking?

Caroline 30:40

I feel like we've talked about this before. Adults should not need to ask a child for help for anything, It's a red flag

Anne 30:46

I was telling that to my daughter between this and watching, Silence of the Lambs. I was like, If you see somebody, you know, with a broken limb trying to do something, don't help them." And she's like, "Mom, that's terrible." I was like, me.

Caroline 30:58

Mm.

Anne 30:59

don't do it. Adults don't need grown-ups' help."

Caroline 31:01

You don't need children's help.

Anne 31:03

don't need help from anyone ever. That's what I meant. But yeah, Robin says to him, "You're gonna have to stand up for yourself one of these days." And we've talked about the save the cat screenwriting beat sheet where a side character states the theme early on. I don't know, he just looks so little and vulnerable in that room. Like, he's terrified, but he's also sort of not surprised. better, which also reminds me of Max in Stranger Things, which we talked about. Just like, "Of course this would happen to me,"

Caroline 31:32

Yeah, but I was impressed by his, various attempts,

Anne 31:36

Yeah. I liked when he threads the cord through the rolled up rug to get the grate off the window. of Catherine Martin throwing up the bone to catch Precious, right?

Caroline 31:45

Pretty smart

Anne 31:45

Speaking of dogs, I feel bad for the Grabber's dog, who's obviously trained for evil and violence.

Caroline 31:51

Yeah.

Anne 31:52

to the dog

Caroline 31:52

No

Anne 31:53

Another save the cat beat sheet moment, we get his dark night of the soul moment after the freezer attempt fails. falls into such a state of despair, and he, like, cries so hard. you can just see that fear and anxiety of knowing what's going to happen again, but also I think being unable to comprehend it, what he's going to experience, what he knows is coming, how bad it's going to be. And it's really sad, scary, powerful Joe Hill talks about that books need peril. peril is what keeps a reader moving forward, and that doesn't mean it has to be physical peril. It could be romantic, moral, but something that makes us want to turn the pages, and Finn is in peril because I loved him or we feel that peril

Caroline 32:33

Mm-hmm.

Anne 32:33

It's not a perfect story, right if you wanna poke holes in he escapes, it can be done, But I just love the way it all comes together for him. Like, every failed attempt ends up being part of escape, something he shouldn't be able to do. Like, this is a grown man who is pretty buff. Like, what'd you think of Ethan Hawke, like when he's sitting there with his shirt off? Like,

Caroline 32:56

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 32:57

him to, like, skinny little Finn. So this has happened to five kids. He's good at it, and yet Finn can take all those little clues and bring it together to defeat him Which reminded me also of Silence of the Lambs because Hannibal Lecter says, like, you're so close to how you're going to catch him. Everything Clarice needs is there

Caroline 33:14

Yeah.

Anne 33:15

to catch Buffalo Bill, and everything Finn needs is there.

Caroline 33:18

Right.

Anne 33:19

It's like an escape room. Have you ever done an escape room?

Caroline 33:21

No, I'm not, like, pithy, so I feel like I would not be good at it

Anne 33:26

Yeah. I was not good at it.

Caroline 33:27

Mm-mm.

Anne 33:28

my area of intelligence, like figuring things out, like, and my daughter so good at it. was, like able to notice patterns

Caroline 33:38

Yeah

Anne 33:39

we, did it as a family, and I also did one with my book club, and my book club has a quite a few scientists in it. one friend's a chemist, one is an engineer, did pre-med, another works for, research journals and CSIRO. So I've got these scientists that I'm friends with, and the escape room we went to was like a zombie apocalypse escape room, and there were... So it was like a lab, and there were all these like chemistry formulas on the wall, and they were looking at it, like looking to see if one of the formulas was wrong, the person had to call in and be like, It's, it's actually not that hard." Like,

Caroline 34:08

Yeah.

Anne 34:08

you don't need, niche science

Caroline 34:11

Yeah, you don't need a PhD. yeah, I think my oldest would be really good at it 'cause he, and my husband, 'cause they're very good at, like, outside-the-box thinking, and I think very much in a box. So

Anne 34:22

I'm reasonably good with words. I'm not good with, spatial stuff

Caroline 34:27

me neither

Anne 34:27

thinking. But Finn's escape room, as I said, all the things that seem to fail, like the basement's soundproof, which makes it seem hopeless, but that helps him break down that wall, right? Like if it wasn't soundproof, the Grabber would have stopped him. And then meat in the freezer, like when he breaks through that wall and he can't get through the freezer, and it's so demoralizing, but he wouldn't have been able to get past the dog. it matters. And then you get the, I guess, childish attempt to tunnel to the other side of the house. Like that's never gonna work, but that's the hole the Grabber falls into. That's how he fills up adding weight to the phone. That's tiger trap from the Swiss Family Robinson. Are you a Swiss Family Robinson fan?

Caroline 35:01

No, I,

Anne 35:02

that

Caroline 35:02

no, I never really watched that

Anne 35:04

It was one of, uh, George Lucas' favorite movies, You can see his influence in, Return of the Jedi

Caroline 35:09

I was gonna say the Ewok village, right? Yeah.

Anne 35:12

Yeah, and then pulling out the window grate is another failed attempt, but that's how he breaks the Grabber's ankle, right? Like, 'cause of that angle. I sprained my ankle roughly around the time I was watching this, so that, I found that scene, very hard to watch when the ankle actually breaks 'cause I hate breaking bones. And yeah, the bike lock. Again, seems like another failed attempt, but he needs that to actually just get out of the house at the end Do you think he should have just stabbed the grabber when he was asleep? instead of trying to break through, like, just grab a kitchen knife and

Caroline 35:39

I mean, it would be a big risk 'cause how do you know he's not gonna see you and not gonna catch you at the last minute 'cause he's, like, stronger,

Anne 35:46

Yeah. It probably would've been the smartest move, I think, because the clunking, that was so tense, like, as he's trying to figure out the lock, and it's making all these noises. he probably would've been smarter to just go up and slit his throat,

Caroline 35:57

I agree. Yeah.

Anne 35:58

that

Caroline 35:59

Yeah

Anne 35:59

you're 12, 13 years old? You've never hurt anyone in your life really to fight back. I think it's that whole easier said than done thing that we've talked about. Like, why didn't the character just do that, right? It's hard to hurt someone What did you think of Gwen?

Caroline 36:12

it's so funny you said that about the Oscar because I thought she was a terrible actress.

Anne 36:17

Really? thought she was great

Caroline 36:19

I- the whole time I was like, she's clearly r- reciting lines. I mean, I... the intimate moments between them is different, but when they're walking together and talking, I was like, "This is a person reciting lines." Like, From a trope perspective, I was like, "Oh, the girl's a terrible actress."

Anne 36:36

Oh, I thought she was great. Like, a little take no shit, plucky, fierce little

Caroline 36:41

Yeah.

Anne 36:42

her swear words. do you wanna start calling people fucking fart knockers?

Caroline 36:46

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely creative. I thought also it was like when she hit that kid in the head with a rock, I was like, "Did she just kill that child?"

Anne 36:53

I think she killed that child.

Caroline 36:55

Right?

Anne 36:55

Like,

Caroline 36:56

fucking killed that job.

Anne 36:57

Or he could have become a serial killer because of the head injury he got in that moment

Caroline 37:01

Yeah

Anne 37:02

Do you know she's also the actress who plays Bonnie in Toy Story 4?

Caroline 37:06

Oh, seen,

Anne 37:08

movie

Caroline 37:08

haven't seen Toy Story 4 yet. and I have to watch it now because Toy Story 5 is coming out this weekend, so I, I need to watch that

Anne 37:14

I loved Toy Story 4. I was resistant to it because I thought three ended things so

Caroline 37:18

Me too. That's why I haven't seen it.

Anne 37:20

It's good. And it's a horror movie.

Caroline 37:21

Mm.

Anne 37:22

It's like, it's some legitimately scary, moments inspired by, like, The Shining.

Caroline 37:26

Mm.

Anne 37:26

well, Scott Derrickson wanted Gwen to be the heart and soul, I think I said the first 26 minutes are all about establishing that deep relationship. what did you think of the beating scene? Because some of the people involved in making this movie tried to get Scott Derrickson to take it out, Because it was too confronting, and he refused. It is hard to watch. I thought she was acting really well in that

Caroline 37:45

Yeah. I mean, I don't think it needed to be removed. and it, felt very real. That scene felt very real, yeah

Anne 37:52

Yeah, like she was capitulating, like saying what she needed to say to end the situation, but also, like, you could see this, this fury behind her eyes as she's, being like, my dreams aren't real," or whatever she was saying to him that he was demanding she say

Caroline 38:05

I feel like she did a good job when the material is extreme, but it's easier to do a good job when you have extreme material than it is when you're just, like, being,

Anne 38:15

So your objection to her is more just like the everyday

Caroline 38:17

Yeah. the everyday dialogue felt very forced and like an actress saying lines. Yeah.

Anne 38:23

Hmm. Well, Gwen's definitely got the shining. and her dreams are the device to get us to know what happened to the other boys, and I think I've said, maybe it was in our Mexican Gothic episode, that I don't really like dream sequences, but this worked for me

Caroline 38:37

Oh my God, that reminds me. Just this morning my husband woke me up and, sorry, I was like, Uh, someone crashed my car into a river, and I escaped through the window." And he was like, Oh, so you could get back to me?" And I was like, "No, I went to the Kardashians." But it wasn't actually Kar- the Kardashians, it was, like, people we went to college with. lived in the Kardashians'

Anne 38:57

the Kardashians?

Caroline 38:58

house.

Anne 38:59

So

Caroline 38:59

yeah. Do we...

Anne 39:01

the

Caroline 39:01

No. No. No. You know why? Because Kim Kardashian is dating Lewis Hamilton, so that's why she was on my mind. But, Cause I always had these crazy dreams in college, and I had a dream diary, like, next to my bed, and I would write things down, and then I would, like, hold court essentially and ex- describe.

Anne 39:17

I remember that,

Caroline 39:17

Yeah

Anne 39:18

Do you still have that?

Caroline 39:19

I used to do it when I had like a stylus cellphone like a few years ago, and I would just like write words down that didn't really make sense.

Anne 39:27

I've definitely woken up in the middle of the night, inscribed an idea for like a horror novel or short story, and then had no idea what I meant when I woke

Caroline 39:33

Yeah.

Anne 39:34

morning and was reading it. I was like, "What the fuck am I talking about?"

Caroline 39:36

Yeah.

Anne 39:37

Well, Gwen's dreams, we know they're real because they do lead her to the house,

Caroline 39:41

Mm-hmm

Anne 39:42

But I don't think they're 100% real. Like, I think it's kind of flashes of what's being communicated because, Vance 7741 on the arm of that guy he beats up, But why would he do that in real life? He hadn't been murdered yet.

Caroline 39:54

Yeah.

Anne 39:55

brought to the house,

Caroline 39:56

Yeah

Anne 39:57

I think it's kind of like trying to communicate to her what happened through the dreams, but it's not an exact, of what happened

Caroline 40:05

Yeah, the force works similarly.

Anne 40:07

Definitely. The Shining and The Force. That house is so innocuous yet frightening. Do you ever see a house and just, like, get the creeps? even if there's nothing actually inherently creepy about it? Like, obviously if you see, like, a gothic mansion, you're gonna get the creeps, but

Caroline 40:23

you know from growing up around here, there's so many super old houses. Like, I feel like I'm often just curious. I would love to see inside them, but no, I don't have the creeps, no

Anne 40:33

There was this house I used to walk by, and it had like a really unusually big no trespassing, like, Trespassers will be prosecuted." And there was, out the back, I had probably read Room roughly around that time, and being like, "Is somebody in that shed?" And probably not. but, like, you know, this does happen I do like that the cops take her seriously at the end. when she comes to them with that dream and they're like, "Okay, let's go." They must have been pretty desperate though

Caroline 40:56

and she mentioned the black balloons. I think that's why.

Anne 40:59

So they knew she had a connection, but at first they think the connection is her dad, that her dad was guilty, and that's why she knew that, which is the cause of that horrific beating. you wanna move on to the dad?

Caroline 41:09

Sure.

Anne 41:09

He's in Twister, The Wonder Years, and Melrose Place

Caroline 41:12

Who was he in Twister?

Anne 41:13

one of the guys on the crew.

Caroline 41:15

Oh.

Anne 41:15

one of the guys that, like, hangs out with, Hunt

Caroline 41:17

Huh

Anne 41:18

Yeah. So this is obviously a very toxic, harmful situation. he's a time bomb. You can see they're walking on eggshells when he's hungover, so definitely that horror is in the home kind of thing, and they're taking care of him But it's not like a simple black and white, like he's a villain. you know, if you look at, say, Bev's dad in It, I think he's 100% But he's hurt and he's trying to exert control, and you can see that he does love his kids even though he hurts them. And I, I think that's guess what makes domestic abuse so complex and difficult to escape, Because it's not just evil versus good

Caroline 41:52

Well, it's not just domestic abuse, it's substance use disorder. that's what, I think Zendaya does for Euphoria as well. It's like this person is hurting people and people they love, but they also are able to emote that it's almost, like, out of their control in some way

Anne 42:11

Yeah. So that alcoholism and abuse is Oh, uh Black Phone he's sober and has, turned a corner, That's one good thing that comes out of Black Phone 2.

Caroline 42:21

Mm.

Anne 42:21

But, like, he's still struggling, like, not to, but, When I finished this movie, I was like, I hope he comes good and that this is the rock bottom he needed to to change."

Caroline 42:30

I mean, that is actually what I have as a criticism I actually hate in media when Some event occurs and that cures their addiction. like now they don't have a problem all of a sudden, and it never kinda comes up again. I really feel like that is not at all true to reality, and I think I'm overly sensitized to had a pers- a, a parent who died from their substance use. But, like, I, I think... I just think it's not true to life, and it doesn't do anybody any favors who has a family member, 'cause then they're like, "Well, that dad stopped," you know?

Anne 43:02

Yeah.

Caroline 43:03

makes them feel like they aren't enough. when that's not what it's about. It's not about them. it's not about almost losing your kids. It's not about any one thing. It's about getting a handle on your disease

Anne 43:14

Yeah, He is sober, and I think it's been, like, three years, but he's tempted

Caroline 43:19

Yeah.

Anne 43:20

in Black Phone II.

Caroline 43:21

good. I didn't watch Black Phone 2

Anne 43:23

I don't know if you'd like it. I, I don't think it's as good. It's fine. I liked it. There's some-- there's a very creative kill that I liked, but the grabber's more like Freddy Krueger than a real person, so it doesn't hit in the same way for me. Like, it's good for a supernatural Freddy Krueger slasher type of movie, but it's not the simple, clean story that The Black Phone is I guess if you're looking for probably but accurate depictions of substance abuse, I always think of, Bubs from The Wire. Bubbles?

Caroline 43:49

Yeah

Anne 43:50

Well shall we talk about the grabber I think we should profile the grabber, that we are experts now from watching Mindhunter?

Caroline 43:56

Sure. Do you think he's organized or unorganized?

Anne 43:59

Organized.

Caroline 44:00

agree

Anne 44:00

I think he plans, I think he stalks, I think he's organized too because we don't see what he's like with his brother,

Caroline 44:07

Mm-hmm.

Anne 44:09

like, red string wall up and is obviously on this. So the brother's like Rule right next to the perpetrator and not seeing it, so he must present differently to the people in his life

Caroline 44:20

Mm-hmm.

Anne 44:21

This is the other kind of thing that they would, talk about in Mindhunter. He has a, a vehicle because he can transport victims. am gonna quote Hannibal Lecter and say he covets what he sees every day he's local. I think we can assume he can't sustain a normal relationship, and therefore he targets children that he can overpower. And I think he was probably abused himself because you don't end up doing this if your childhood was happy

Caroline 44:42

Without a doubt,

Anne 44:43

and I think we get clues to abuse in his life. I mean, you don- I don't think you come up with the game Naughty Boy if you weren't treated as a naughty boy,

Caroline 44:51

Mm-hmm.

Anne 44:51

a kid. And there's that moment where Max, the brother, is, like, approaching the basement door and, like, backs up, right? And he never crosses the threshold, right? He opens the door to Finney in the basement, but he doesn't go in, I think that says something about their childhood

Caroline 45:05

well certainly to have a basement like that.

Anne 45:07

Yeah, like why would you have that down there with a toilet if it wasn't being used for something maybe? Ed Kemper was kept in the basement by his mother, right?

Caroline 45:15

I would have loved if my basement had a toilet.

Anne 45:18

Yeah not to have to go upstairs But then it it's kind of like the the victim toilet It's kinda creepy to have it down there

Caroline 45:23

Well, we didn't have air conditioning. What, no air con? We had no air con. I can't sleep in the heat, and in the summer I would sleep in the basement 'cause it was below ground so it was cool. But then if I had to pee in the night, I had to walk upstairs. I would've loved a bathroom in the basement

Anne 45:37

the monster might chase you up the stairs, right?

Caroline 45:39

Right. Mm-hmm

Anne 45:40

Um, also other evidence of the way this man is damaged is he only wears the mask with Finney, and then he freaks out when his face is revealed in that final battle scene. yeah, why do you think he on the mask?

Caroline 45:54

I don't know, 'cause he was gonna kill him anyway, so I really don't know.

Anne 45:57

So yeah, it's not about hiding his identity. It's masking something else,

Caroline 46:01

Mm-hmm

Anne 46:02

There must be some shame in there. I don't know

Caroline 46:04

Or power. I more felt like it gave him the power he needed to do the things he was

Anne 46:10

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 46:11

about

Anne 46:11

Yeah. there's like a psychological dependence on it.

Caroline 46:14

Yeah

Anne 46:14

they're different. I remember not noticing that at first, but like the first one I think has no mouth, and then there's the wide smile with like the toothy grin.

Caroline 46:22

Oh, I thought it was just like had different parts to it, but it was still one.

Anne 46:26

there's one where there's no mouth.

Caroline 46:28

interesting.

Anne 46:29

I think it's, interchangeable parts. Kind of like Princess Mombi in Return to Oz and her Hall of Heads. I don't know if you've watched that yet,

Caroline 46:36

No, I'm gonna watch it on my plane to Colorado. That's how I'm supposed to say it, tomorrow.

Anne 46:41

So soon or already happened, we are going to be on Gravestone Podcast discussing Return to Oz and The Peanut Butter Solution, our childhood trauma movies. So check that out it's out yet. So Scott Derrickson said they spent eight weeks in pre-production, and a lot of that time went into developing the mask and getting that right to be so unsettling. And apparently when Ethan Hawke said it, he was like, "Well, my work is done." I can do other stuff, like with his mannerisms and his voice because the mask just made it so scary.

Caroline 47:08

Mm.

Anne 47:09

You know, some people say it looks like Jeffrey Epstein

Caroline 47:11

Mm-hmm. Drank.

Anne 47:12

I saw it on Reddit.

Caroline 47:12

And he mentioned Jeffrey.

Anne 47:13

Found a way. well, one thing I wanna point out is that like John Douglas says in Mindhunter, Scott Derrickson says, "There's nothing cool about serial killers. They're terrible, weak, obnoxious people," and he wanted to present the Grabber that way, to challenge that mystique that killers like Ted Bundy have. he's just a loser who's overpowering children

Caroline 47:31

Why does a loser have two homes though? And how does he afford two homes?

Anne 47:36

I think he inherited them because it's his childhood home, he mentions the phone ringing when he was a kid, right? yeah, how does a part-time He's obviously home a lot. I mean, maybe he has another job and the magician thing is just on the side. But, I would assume inherited

Caroline 47:50

Mm-hmm.

Anne 47:51

Maybe he killed his parents and just got away with it I was wondering if he was picking, like, violent, volatile kids because he picks Vance and Robin, And they were both very violent. Bruce Yamada doesn't strike me as somebody who was, like, beating kids up. And the paper boy and Finn, like, Finn was the victim. But, I was wondering if we think he's choosing kids who are going to fight back because they'll play into the naughty boy game

Caroline 48:13

I sort of wonder if the kidnapping itself isn't opportunistic in some way.

Anne 48:19

happens to drive by

Caroline 48:19

Yeah. I feel like he's not like BTK level organized, but he has a process for once he's captured them. I just think that, like, Harvest might be disorganized

Anne 48:29

Hmm.

Caroline 48:29

Opportunistic,

Anne 48:30

whenever he sees a adolescent boy alone. Yeah. but I do think he's, like, daring them. Like he gives Finn, like a drink in a glass bottle. that's a weapon, right?

Caroline 48:40

Mm-hmm.

Anne 48:42

And he lets Finn keep the little rocket. Try

Caroline 48:44

I know that, that was a criticism why would you ever let them keep that? Especially after he,

Anne 48:50

knows

Caroline 48:51

injured him with it,

Anne 48:52

I think either it's an oversight it's because he knows he has it and he's like, "He's gonna come at me with that little rocket," or, "He's gonna come at me with that bottle and I'm gonna be prepared." of the kids, I can't remember which one, says, like, "You have to play the game. If you don't play, he can't win."

Caroline 49:07

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 49:11

it's another moment of despair because, you know, Finney lies, and then he's like, was gonna let you go. I was starting to like you."

Caroline 49:16

Mm-mm.

Anne 49:18

it back. Not that I think there ever was any hope of him letting Finney go. But for Finney, he would be kicking himself like, "Was he gonna let me go? Did I have a chance?" 'Cause you'd be h- grasping at those straws Yeah, he's very manipulative. Like, he says he didn't kill Bruce and Robin. He says he's not gonna hurt him, You don't have to be scared. Nothing bad is going to happen here." at one point I thought maybe that's true, like nothing bad is going to happen here. he wanted the bad thing to happen maybe upstairs, like when Finney came up

Caroline 49:43

Hmm. Hmm.

Anne 49:46

when he came down and he's like, "Just to look at you. I just wanted to look at you," which reminded me of Pen Pal.

Caroline 49:51

Mm-hmm.

Anne 49:52

like, the kind of stalker? I think one of the scariest moments for me is that we've already mentioned it, but the contrast of him waiting with his shirt off in the kitchen 'cause he's got this masculine adult body.

Caroline 50:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 50:04

Did you have a crush on Ethan Hawke?

Caroline 50:06

Uh, yes. only in Reality Bites, which I have since determined was a big red flag

Anne 50:15

Yes. is in that Byronic, Jordan Catalano category that's

Caroline 50:21

Riggins for his Friday Night Light fans.

Anne 50:24

Yeah, Riggins, totally

Caroline 50:26

Yes.

Anne 50:26

definitely in that

Caroline 50:27

Yeah.

Anne 50:28

Yeah, Troy, get over yourself.

Caroline 50:29

Yeah

Anne 50:30

Have you watched it any time recently?

Caroline 50:32

I mean, I watched it, maybe five or so y- like, in my married life, married with kids life, and I was like, "Oof."

Anne 50:39

I don't think I've watched it as an adult, and just watched this, I listened to this podcast called The Big Picture Podcast, which went through all the Ethan Hawke films, and it was just this down memory lane. Like, he's been in so many good movies, and it's this mix of genre and art, we've got this, Sinister, The Purge, but then he's also got, like, the Before Sunset, Before Sunrise, Boyhood, that John Brown movie, um, Good Lord Bird. Did you see that?

Caroline 51:03

Mm-mm. Dead Poets Society?

Anne 51:05

I had poems to say. How did I forget that one? Yeah. And Gattaca, I've mentioned is the reason I have not gotten ancestry.com, right?

Caroline 51:12

We did see him in a stage play in New York, but I can't remember what it was now. Laurie Metcalf was there, and I remember being, like, more fangirling over Laurie Metcalf, being like, "Aunt Jackie, you're the best."

Anne 51:24

Yeah. Yeah, you've always loved her.

Caroline 51:26

Yeah

Anne 51:27

in the last Podcast on the Left episode that interviewed Scott Derrickson, Zebrowski started, like his very first question right off the bat was like, If you love Ethan Hawke so much, why don't you marry him?" And it just made me like laugh out loud because he put him in, um, in Sinister as well. Like, so Ethan Hawke's the lead in that, which is, is the same director. Anything else you wanna say about The Grabber?

Caroline 51:46

Mm-mm.

Anne 51:47

Well, speaking of The Wire, Max is Ziggy. in season two

Caroline 51:52

Oh, I did not recognize him.

Anne 51:54

yeah.

Caroline 51:54

movie is, like, pro-cocaine.

Anne 51:58

Why did the cops not care?

Caroline 52:00

Well, 'cause they're, they're not DA, and it's the '70s. but I also just was like, is this a cocaine positive movie? 'Cause he figures it out

Anne 52:10

he's... Yeah, I guess his brain was firing on all cylinders eventually,

Caroline 52:14

Yeah.

Anne 52:15

But it's possible the drugs were keeping him from figuring out earlier,

Caroline 52:18

True

Anne 52:19

like it's obvious. You know, he's like, He's gonna be in this circle on the map," and it's like, you're there. you're at that part of the

Caroline 52:26

But I did, as soon as they knocked on that door, I was like, "That's the door." That's the house." You know? And then I was like, "Oh, this must be some other house." And then when it goes through the layers, I was like, is this, intentional?" Or, you know, like, I couldn't tell if it was like this is actually the house or not.

Anne 52:43

and it is actually the house. he's right down there. thought those cops needed road school from Tension Ford from Mindhunter, because as we know, if someone in the neighborhood is sorta wacky and obsessed with the case and inserting themselves into the investigation, it probably bears more than a two-minute glance around the house.

Caroline 53:00

However, I will say there was one, missing person that turned up to be people dead, but in that period of time in my hometown, and I actually took, like, marker on a window at the office and was, like, doing timelines and, like, clues and stuff like that. Just 'cause it was, like, my hometown, nothing ever happens there. the people were missing. Eventually their bodies were found. This was, like, um, 10, 15 years ago

Anne 53:28

So as a woman in her late

Caroline 53:31

As a married woman with children,

Anne 53:33

you don't fit the profile. So even if you were obsessed with the case, But M- Max does fit the profile.

Caroline 53:40

That's true.

Anne 53:40

talked to

Caroline 53:41

That's true

Anne 53:41

I can't believe you had a red string wall, essentially.

Caroline 53:44

it was like a, more like using the window as if it were a dry erase board.

Anne 53:49

Yeah, that's the kind of thing they do

Caroline 53:50

Yeah

Anne 53:52

but yeah, I guess this is the only, guess glance into who the Grabber is outside of what we see with Finney, right? Because there is a part of him that obviously tolerates and perhaps loves Max to some extent. he says he was like, "My idiot," or something like that, right?

Caroline 54:08

Yeah, I don't know if he's capable of love, but has an attachment

Anne 54:12

Attachment, yeah. He seems to have a sense of regret over being put in that position to kill him. Obviously he doesn't care about him enough not to kill him, but

Caroline 54:20

Right.

Anne 54:21

spoiler for The Shining movie, which is how many years old?

Caroline 54:24

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:24

50 years old? but he's kind of the Dick Hallorann of The Shining movie, he gets down into the basement. We think, "Oh, he's coming to rescue Finney," and then he gets an ax to the head

Caroline 54:34

Totally.

Anne 54:35

Um, Anything you want to say about the, the boys? We've already talked about Bruce. Vance kind of reminded me of Eddie from Stranger Things. He wants vengeance, and he was the one who was, I guess, the scariest of the ghosts in terms of the warning he's giving Finney. Like, "If you knew what you had coming, you'd be fucking terrified. Today's the day."

Caroline 54:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:54

I thought Billy the paperboy was a Johnny Gosch? How do you pron- pronounce that? Johnny Gosch, the paperboy who went missing.

Caroline 55:01

Oh, I don't know that one.

Anne 55:02

a, it's like a '70s, '80s famous case. It might be the boy on the milk carton,

Caroline 55:06

Oh, really?

Anne 55:07

the yeah,

Caroline 55:08

Oh gosh, I'm surprised at myself

Anne 55:10

I am surprised at you.

Caroline 55:11

he was by himself. Yeah, no. I'm thinking of the other one who

Anne 55:16

it's still unsolved, I think

Caroline 55:17

His brother witnessed it I'm thinking of a different one. Anyway. I was sort of curious why... I'm sorry, I don't remember the protector boy

Anne 55:27

Robin

Caroline 55:27

Why he liked Finn. I was sort of curious why he was, like, defending him. I mean, I get that he was tutoring him or whatever,

Anne 55:36

part of me thought, is Robin just using Finn? Like, is Finn a smart kid

Caroline 55:40

Right

Anne 55:40

using him to do his homework, and that's why he protects him? But it did seem like they were actually friends to me. Uh, maybe they grew up together, and it was just one of those relationships that continued. And I, I don't think is actually evil sadist. I think it's a survival of fittest situation, and this is how he survived. And we don't know what's

Caroline 55:57

Totally.

Anne 55:58

in Robin's home. We don't know what Robin has experienced

Caroline 56:01

don't think he's violent either, but, like, normally the popular kid doesn't need to actually protect the nerd to have the nerd keep helping them

Anne 56:08

But he's not the popular kid. He's the scary kid,

Caroline 56:10

Well, I kinda, I, I guess I kind of put those together the other kids are the just plain scary kids,

Anne 56:18

my favorite scene from the movie is when Robin comes back is prepping Finney,

Caroline 56:23

Mm-hmm.

Anne 56:23

and it's like that scene from The Karate Kid and, like, Today's the day you stop taking shit from anyone. Do it for me. Don't cry. I'm here with you. I've been with you this whole time." And they're just in sync practicing that hitting, stepping back, hitting,

Caroline 56:35

Mm-hmm.

Anne 56:35

just... It's so good. even if it wouldn't work. Like, I know I've seen a criticism like, the dirt wouldn't have made it that heavy," right?

Caroline 56:41

Yeah

Anne 56:42

It just works for me. And one of my favorite behind-the-scenes stories is that Robin filmed his part had gone back to wherever he's from, they originally were just gonna have him doing that on the phone, and then the director decided like, "No, no, no, he needs to be visible in this," and they, like, flew him back at the

Caroline 56:58

嗯。

Anne 56:59

to put him in that scene, for their little Project Hail Mary escape plan. The actor who plays Robin is in Black Phone II. He plays his little brother.

Caroline 57:06

Oh, cute.

Anne 57:07

And he's, like, unrecognizable, like, because his ha- he's got glasses and his hair's different and he's grown up a few years, but kind of a little nod to, movie. All right, What for you is the most upsetting, scariest moment?

Caroline 57:19

The dripping sound that then was like a boy Massacred, floating.

Anne 57:25

Was he the one that was like floating kind of with his

Caroline 57:27

Yeah

Anne 57:27

that's awful to see. Uh, every time that black van shows up gave me the heebie-jeebies. the way we see it fade after Bruce sees it, and Billy with his poor little dog and bike left behind. Very unsettling.

Caroline 57:38

Mm-hmm.

Anne 57:38

As we said in our opening, vans always make me nervous

Caroline 57:42

Do you remember when we were in college in Baltimore that the DC Sniper was around, and that he was

Anne 57:48

yeah

Caroline 57:49

sup- I remember walking to, like, Royal Farms with Hurricane and being like, There's a van driving by. Do we need to duck?" Cause they were telling us to look out for vans

Anne 57:57

I remember being a little bit nervous about that, but feeling okay enough that it was in DC, like that felt far enough away

Caroline 58:02

Yeah, but we went on lockdown at one point or maybe it wasn't lockdown, maybe it was just a warning. lockdown f-

Anne 58:07

better about remembering college than

Caroline 58:09

were definitely on lockdown for 9/11,

Anne 58:11

Oh yeah, I remember that

Caroline 58:12

I think for the sniper we were just given a warning of what type of cars to look out for

Anne 58:16

Stop walking to the Royal Farms to get cigarettes, Caroline. That's what they warned you about

Caroline 58:20

Need my P-Funks.

Anne 58:24

Um, yeah, I think in terms of scary scenes, as I've already said, the image of, the Grabber with his shirt off in the kitchen waiting to play naughty boy. the bike lock scene was very tense. I like a sleeping giant scene. those scenes where you're having to sneak past someone, and you see it in a lot of kids movies, I guess. It's always harrowing not knowing if they're really asleep,

Caroline 58:42

Secret of NIMH, one of my favorite cartoons for crying

Anne 58:45

see a sleeping giant scene, not a giant, but a sleeping enemy scene in Return to Oz

Caroline 58:51

Mm.

Anne 58:52

also when the Grabber says, "I'm gonna take my time. I want this to really hurt," I think sadists are the scariest, so

Caroline 58:58

Toy Story 2 also has a sleeping enemy

Anne 59:00

Remind

Caroline 59:00

Newman is like sleeping in front of the TV. Yeah.

Anne 59:04

and he's got, like, the nachos

Caroline 59:04

Yeah. I

Anne 59:05

his

Caroline 59:05

think there's like Cheetos. Yeah.

Anne 59:07

Cheeto dust, yes. you know, that you mentioned Newman, reread the Black Phone story for this, and one of the main differences is the grabber is basically described as Newman from Jurassic Park. it's quite fatphobic, I would say, as a criticism of the story, lots of discussion of wobbling flesh and stuff like that. But described as quite overweight. Finney refers to him as the fat man, and he's wearing a Hawaiian shirt, and I was like, I am picturing Newman."

Caroline 59:32

totally.

Anne 59:34

yeah All right, beneath the surface, the impossibility of owning your own home on an entertainer's income. I saw that on Reddit. That's not my joke.

Caroline 59:43

Yeah, I have actually spent a lot of time since watching this thinking about if I were imprisoned, if I was falsely accused of something, for example, and what I would do with all that time with my thoughts because, as you know, I am listening to something whenever I'm awake. there's either music happening or I have Dateline on here as background noise while I'm doing my work,, I'm listening to podcasts all day. I listen to podcasts all night. Like, I really don't have silence ever, and I really don't deal well with...

Anne 1:00:12

suffer.

Caroline 1:00:13

It would be torture

Anne 1:00:14

Forget the murderer part, you just would have trouble with the silence,

Caroline 1:00:17

Yeah, I mean, thankfully there was a bathroom down there because that's the other thing that stresses me out about being falsely imprisoned. I have to pee all the time.

Anne 1:00:24

Yeah.

Caroline 1:00:25

really awful

Anne 1:00:27

lingering ghosts as another deeper horror, and again, I know you don't believe in any of this, right? But the idea that you could die traumatically in a moment of pain and suffering, and then linger, which is explored in so many horror movies, uh, you know, the plight of a ghost, and maybe not even knowing why you're still there and forgetting who you are. like Bruce says, I think it's Bruce, I don't remember my name. It's the first thing you lose," and I find that very dark. And "The Haunting of Bly Manor," which I want to cover eventually, by Mike Flanagan, really explores this. you heard of Teresita Basa?

Caroline 1:00:58

No

Anne 1:00:59

So she's a woman that was murdered in the '70s. she was murdered, case was unsolved, and five or six months later, her coworker went into a trance and spoke like Teresita, the murder victim, her husband and gave details of who killed her, and it was an orderly at the hospital where Teresita worked, and it was him. it's just one of those stories that comes up that makes you wonder,

Caroline 1:01:19

Hmm

Anne 1:01:20

right? And now I think explanation is that maybe the friend of hers who, channeled her spirit thought this guy murdered her and was like, "I gotta come up with a story to get it to the cops." So that's the other side of it, but it's just,

Caroline 1:01:34

हम्म।

Anne 1:01:35

make sense. In our understanding of heaven and Earth other deeper horror is just the sadistic bullying that's going on in this town

Caroline 1:01:43

Yeah. and living with trauma, I guess, as the family is before this kidnapping happens

Anne 1:01:49

And the substance abuse, domestic abuse. it's like seeing those kids walking on eggshells. And, you know, we talked about this in our Carrie episode. That's not a substance abuse issue, but Margaret White is not a safe person to come home to, and sucks when kids are in that situation.

Caroline 1:02:04

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:02:04

Also interesting to note that Joe Hill, although this aspect of the story is not in short story, The Black Phone, he is the child of an alcoholic, right? And, a lot of his other stories do touch on that, Like Stephen King writes about alcoholic fathers, and Joe Hill writes about children of alcoholics.

Caroline 1:02:22

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:02:25

that element there

Caroline 1:02:26

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:02:26

Do you have any questions?

Caroline 1:02:28

Yeah. like I said, I didn't understand how he afforded the two houses. Um, I also would have liked more information about how he got like that. I guess their family history. Why do they own two houses across the street if he inherited them? And, I don't understand the associ- the balloons. if you're just gonna jump scare somebody, like, why do you have balloons and like, you could just do that with an intruder, as we know by Ted M- You don't need to, like, spend all the money on an identifier such as a giant set of black balloons

Anne 1:02:58

Yeah. given that the cops know about the balloons, they should go to their local Michaels and see who's buying

Caroline 1:03:03

Right

Anne 1:03:04

can- canisters, who seems like a weirdo because he is a weirdo, right? Like, unless he's really presenting differently in his real life, we've got a man in his probably 30s or 40s who fits the profile of a serial killer. But again, this is 1978. They didn't necessarily have that information yet in terms of profiling that we now know. But, like, seems very conspicuous,

Caroline 1:03:24

Yes.

Anne 1:03:25

we see Robin approaching him, he's dressed in, like, a black flowing cape,

Caroline 1:03:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 1:03:29

guy showed up as a magician at a kids party, I'd be like, He's, looking for victims

Caroline 1:03:33

Yeah. It's not very under the radar

Anne 1:03:35

But then I think are Gwen's dreams 100% real? is she seeing things exactly the way sh- they went down, or is she seeing some sort of amalgamation of their experience? Yeah, I see that criticism of not really knowing why the Grabber is the way he is, but I also feel like it works to have that bit of mystery and that we only see what Finn sees, which would be the case if you were the victim.

Caroline 1:03:58

are we talking criticism here as well?

Anne 1:04:00

Well, I have one more

Caroline 1:04:01

Okay.

Anne 1:04:02

and you already said it. Did that kid Gwen hit with a rock survive? Right? yeah.

Caroline 1:04:06

then,

Anne 1:04:07

my last question.

Caroline 1:04:08

yeah, and then criticism... I'm when he runs out of the house and he's yelling for help, these are small houses on small lots. I just don't believe that nobody would've... It's like North Denver. It's not just like Denver. It's like this small area. There's children missing. There's a child yelling at night. neighborhood

Anne 1:04:26

of the West Memphis setting. It had a similar

Caroline 1:04:29

Yeah. Those houses are right next to each other.

Anne 1:04:32

like even if by the time you got out there he was gone, I feel like I'd be calling the cops. Like, "I just

Caroline 1:04:36

I would just be right at the next house n- banging on the door, at the very next house,

Anne 1:04:42

Mm-hmm. In terms of other criticism, I found Bruce smiling on his bike at the beginning a bit unnatural. Like, I know he's happy, and maybe I just have, like, a resting bitch face, but I don't think anyone really smiles that big when they're enjoying themselves alone

Caroline 1:04:54

True.

Anne 1:04:55

And I get that they were going for that contrast of the horror that he's about

Caroline 1:04:59

Yeah, his face dropping.

Anne 1:05:00

and to see his smile fade. But I feel like he should have smiled less. I don't know. yeah, so the underexplaining is a criticism. also could Gwen have actually helped? Despite all the dreams, she doesn't help Finn escape. Like Finn does that entirely on his own, and it's good that when he escapes and walks out she's right there for him. He doesn't have to wander the streets alone. But at the same time, it's not important, Like cops would have found the bodies when they realized when Finn escaped and they realized the Grabber owned both properties.

Caroline 1:05:27

Yeah.

Anne 1:05:28

don't know. Maybe it could have been better written if Gwen was instrumental in saving him

Caroline 1:05:32

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:05:33

Now the question that I haven't asked, and you might be receptive to this as someone who doesn't believe in the supernatural, is, is anyone actually calling Finn, or is it his subconscious? maybe it's wishful thinking, and, his subconscious when the grabber leaves the door open is like, He's baiting me. I know that's a trap," and that's why he doesn't go upstairs. And so maybe it's his subconscious working out escape room and a coping mechanism to feel less alone. I mean, I don't really think that's the case because there are certain things that can't be explained, like knowing where to break the wall at the fridge, but everything else, it's like maybe he could have figured that out on his own

Caroline 1:06:07

so the phone is like his Wilson.

Anne 1:06:09

Yeah. I think it was a valid interpretation

Caroline 1:06:11

Agree. And he also could have just, like, felt for differences in the wall to find something and not known that it was a bridge,

Anne 1:06:19

Yeah. But then we know something supernatural's happening because Gwen gets that number, and there's no way she could've known that. All right, survival, what did we learn?

Caroline 1:06:26

Always have your mace with you.

Anne 1:06:28

And don't help anyone.

Caroline 1:06:29

well, if you're a child, don't help an adult

Anne 1:06:32

We all have GPS on our phones, like nobody needs directions,

Caroline 1:06:35

Right.

Anne 1:06:35

is never the right person to move a couch, and you're not gonna be a model And fight, fight like Vinnie. We've said this before. All right. What's your palate cleanser?

Caroline 1:06:43

We have a couple. Okay, so I know we're in the Podcaster Time Machine. this past weekend was a really good weekend for fans of certain sports and certain athletes. So the Knicks won last weekend, and Lewis Hamilton won his first race under Ferrari. So my husband, who is a diehard fan of both, was just like, it was the weekend of his life, and that had me on a high

Anne 1:07:07

night Queensland, won the second State of Origin game.

Caroline 1:07:11

I don't even know what that is, but yay. Hmm

Anne 1:07:13

it's when the players who play on different, rugby league teams all across like New South Wales and Queensland, they go back to their home state. They take like the best players, and then it's a New South Wales ver- versus Queensland thing. It's really fun

Caroline 1:07:25

So, you know, for the Venn diagram of sports fans who listen, keep rooting for your team and keep hope alive 'cause it can happen

Anne 1:07:34

Puddy say in Seinfeld? "Gotta support the team."

Caroline 1:07:37

Yeah. and I, as I said in our, like, college girlfriend chat, I only knew the last time the next one because of the When Harry Met Sally quote when he mentions it. But, like, it's been a long time, just keep that hope alive. I'm also really happy that Spencer Pratt lost, his run for mayor in LA. And, for a good palate cleanser, you could go watch The Hills or The Soup from those times when they had "Spencer Pratt, unlikely voice of reason," which was one of our favorite things to watch. Um, and then my very dear friend, uh, was recently featured in a New York Times article after her breast cancer battle. the title of the article is Millions of Women Are Left Out of Menopause's Moment. It's in The New York Times. Give it a read. She's a incredible person, and I'm so happy

Anne 1:08:23

Awesome. All right. What's our homework? what should we be reading, watching, or listening to next?

Caroline 1:08:28

Well, in the realm of nostalgia and odes to horror, I guess, we're gonna be listening to the podcast Radio Rental Volume One

Anne 1:08:38

I'm so excited.

Caroline 1:08:39

Me too.

Anne 1:08:39

I love Radio

Caroline 1:08:40

Yeah.

Anne 1:08:40

I'm glad I have an excuse to listen again

Caroline 1:08:43

Me too

Anne 1:08:44

okay. So what recommendations do you have to go with this?

Caroline 1:08:48

so Reality Bites, as I mentioned already, if you're an Ethan Hawke fan. for, famous abduction cases, John Wayne Gacy, Jacob Wetterling, Patz, and then There are these murders, the Alphabet murders, that took place in Rochester. I listened to a podcast on them. I went even into, like AI and Claude and was like, "Can you please find me what podcast I listened to this on?" And I'm at a loss, but try to learn about them, 'cause they're really interesting. It's unsolved, and all of the children who were kidnapped had the same first and last initial, which is

Anne 1:09:20

Okay.

Caroline 1:09:20

bizarre.

Anne 1:09:21

of this.

Caroline 1:09:21

Right? It's pretty bizarre. It's, Zodiac-esque bizarre.

Anne 1:09:25

is it called the Alphabet Murders or the ABC Murders?

Caroline 1:09:27

I think there's a movie called ABC Murders

Anne 1:09:30

an Agatha Christie book, The ABC

Caroline 1:09:32

maybe.

Anne 1:09:33

think so.

Caroline 1:09:33

Anyway, search Rochester, New York child abduction, Alphabet Murders. you'll find information on it. It's pretty fascinating. I wish I could remember. I'm so sorry. I

Anne 1:09:44

it's one of your weird dreams

Caroline 1:09:46

Well, and much like sometimes podcasts have, like, refreshed or updates, so I was gonna mention, a little while back we were talking about being able to change your perspective when new information comes to light, and I mentioned there was a Dateline about a mom who changed her mind about who was guilty who had given a false confession. And Dateline just released an update on that case, and it's the Angie Dodd case. The episode is True Confession. So it's, one of those stories that I think is important in, in the realm of false confessions. also for child kidnapping stories, Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart was a really wonderful documentary that w- came out recently. I also had another update. there's a new documentary called The Witness. It's an old British case where a mom was murdered at, Wimbledon Park in front of her, like, two-year-old or three-year-old child. and they did involve, John Douglas and, like, psychological profiling, and it ended up not working out great. they identified the wrong person through that method. So

Anne 1:10:48

So that's another example

Caroline 1:10:49

yeah, relying on a science that is not perfect, That's it.

Anne 1:10:55

all right, my recommendations, Scott Derrickson's other horror movies. The Exorcism of Emily Rose is horrifying. Sinister especially, scariest movie of all time, and Black Phone 2, which isn't as good, but I still liked it. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I watched it for the first time this week. Had you seen it? Have you

Caroline 1:11:12

Yeah.

Anne 1:11:12

I've always been a little scared of it. but Robin recommended it, and you know, Finney was, like, too scared to watch it, and I was like, should just see what this is," and it was very unsettling. Yeah, it's a scary movie. for more basement horror, L'Orfanato, The Babadook, Silence of the Lambs. check back, some of our previous episodes I think link into this. Our most recent episode is The Silence of the Lambs. Our first episode on Pen Pal by Dathan Auerbach I think links into a Grabber-like killer. The Sixth Sense for kids seeing ghosts, that's our episode 12. And finding the basement burial of the other five boys feels very H.H. Holmes from our Devil in the White City episode, so I'm seeing lots of links to things we've already covered. obviously It and The Shining because I think Gwen and Finney and perhaps The Grabber have a touch of The Shining. And then just all those coming-of-age, Stephen King, Spielbergian sort of stories, E.T., Stand by Me. The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon by Stephen King is a kind of underrated novel. You don't hear people talk about it, but it's a young girl who loves baseball and survives against the odds. for phones with mysterious supernatural elements, There's a novel and a Netflix series called Boy Swallows Universe, which is set in Brisbane, and it's, pretty good. I really liked it. It was very exciting for our neighborhood because not much is set here.

Caroline 1:12:26

Except Bluey, the greatest show of all time.

Anne 1:12:29

Yes. We've, we've got some good ones, the greatest show of all time. Yeah. Uh, 20th Century Ghosts by Joe Hill where the original short story can be found. As I said, My Father's Mask is very unsettling, and all his books that I've read are good. I loved Horns, Heart-Shaped Box, and King Sorrow, which is roughly 900 pages, is sitting on my bedside table. I'm just to get up the, I guess, endurance I'll need to attack a book of that size. the novel Mary by Nat Cassidy for ghostly retribution against a serial killer. And for fun, Arrested Development because Gob is also a magician Okay. that's it. If you have any recommendations for TV, podcasts, books, movies that would go along with this, or that you'd like us to cover, please contact us. We're available on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads. Follow us there and do all the things podcasters ask you to do: like and subscribe, review us on iTunes. Is it even iTunes anymore? Review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Uh, you can email us at drawntodarknesspod@gmail.com, and most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. And if, like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in a week or two at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.