35 - The Cask of Amontillado by Edgar Allen Poe

In this episode, we celebrate one year of Drawn to Darkness by raising a glass to Edgar Allan Poe’s revenge-soaked classic, "The Cask of Amontillado", a story about wounded pride, wine snobbery, and one extremely committed masonry project. Expect talk of Poe’s tragic life, literary feuds, mysterious deaths, buried-alive panic, Freemasons, creepy crypts, and why you should never follow a frenemy to a second location. We also discuss the unsettling question the story refuses to answer: what exactly did Fortunato do? Was this revenge for a real wrong, a thousand tiny slights, or one fragile man’s fantasy of perfect punishment?

Spoiler and Content Warning:
Content includes revenge, murder, claustrophobia, being buried alive, darkness, damp crypts, bones, chains, alcoholism, death, possible mental instability, and the horrible realisation that someone who smiles at you might also be planning to wall you up. We also spoil the "The Cask of Amontillado". So go read it this 1846 classic, and come back. 

Palate Cleanser:
For a lighter trip into the macabre, try black comedies and dark-weirdo classics like Clue, The Craft, Heathers, The Addams Family, Beetlejuice, or Drop Dead Gorgeous. They let you enjoy the creepy, strange, and morbid without trapping you in an underground wine murder dungeon. Also, the podcast That Aged Well, to revisit beloved films and asks how well they hold up; The Basement Yard, for silly green-flag-guy energy.

And don't forget to take a moody evening walk while listening to Poe short stories, if your idea of self-care involves dusk, dread, and nineteenth-century guilt spirals.

Recommendations:
Poe stories including The Tell-Tale Heart, The Pit and the Pendulum, The Raven, The Premature Burial, Berenice, The Fall of the House of Usher, and The Murders in the Rue Morgue
His Hideous Heart, a YA anthology of contemporary Poe retellings
Mike Flanagan’s The Fall of the House of Usher
Wine and Crime episode on being buried alive
The Simpsons: Treehouse of Horror adaptation of The Raven
The Princess Bride, because Count Rugen knows when to run from vengeance
Goodfellas, especially the manipulation and “go into the scary second location” energy
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, for the danger of politeness overriding instinct
Speak No Evil, for another brutal lesson in ignoring red flags
The Descent, for being trapped underground in the dark
Interview with the Vampire, for a particularly horrible buried-alive fate
Buried, starring Ryan Reynolds
CSI, the Nick-buried-alive episode, for peak 2000s TV trauma
Immaculate, for a brief but memorable buried-alive horror moment
Guillermo del Toro’s Cabinet of Curiosities, especially “Graveyard Rats”
Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, for the Well of Souls
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, for bone-lined crypts in Venice
Macbeth, because “false face must hide what false heart doth know” is basically Montresor’s entire personality

Homework:
Next up: The Silence of the Lambs. We’re moving from Poe’s damp catacombs to Buffalo Bill’s basement, with more second-location danger, more manipulation, more dungeon-like spaces, and Clarice Starling walking one of horror’s most memorable corridors. Watch or rewatch before our next episode.

And after that: Mindhunter.  We are officially in our basement era. Until then, do not follow anyone into a damp, bone-lined crypt for a drink, no matter how rare they say it is. We’ll see you next time on Drawn to Darkness.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:11

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you think vengeance is a dish best served with a glass of sherry, we're here for you. My name is Annie, And I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books.

Caroline 0:26

And my name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:30

before we begin, I just wanted to say that it is our one-year anniversary of Drawn to Darkness.

Caroline 0:35

How should we celebrate?

Anne 0:36

by talking about,

Caroline 0:38

Okay.

Anne 0:38

old short story.

Caroline 0:40

Sounds

Anne 0:56

podiversary. Thanks for palcasting with me.

Caroline 0:59

Oh, thanks for requesting me palcasting with you. I'm so happy to.

Anne 1:04

one And thank you if you have been listening this whole time. Thank you for coming it's also roughly your birthday around now, so happy birthday too. It's

Caroline 1:21

Thank you.

Anne 1:22

birthday in real life when we're saying this. It's like, six weeks or something before it, but,

Caroline 1:25

I think as we're recording this, it is George's birthday. 'Cause for some reason I know

Anne 1:31

Georgia Hardstark

Caroline 1:31

No, no, wait. Her birthday is in June. Karen's is in May.

Anne 1:34

Okay. Happy birthday to some of our,

Caroline 1:37

Yeah, ins-

Anne 1:38

inspirations

Caroline 1:39

Yeah.

Anne 1:40

one minor shame spiral I was having about our Devil in the White City episode, at one point I said that a typhoid epidemic killed 10% of the population, but it was a- actually cholera. So I was getting my, Oregon Trail-type diseases mixed up. But yeah, it was actually cholera, so just a minor correction. Okay.

Caroline 2:02

a party?

Anne 2:04

a party? like what do you wanna drink?

Caroline 2:06

if the party is like a, open bar situation, like a wedding, I like a Dirty Shirley, cause I have, like, very immature taste buds. Yeah. So that's what I usually get at, like, a wedding. just like...

Anne 2:18

delicious. I've never

Caroline 2:19

Oh yeah,

Anne 2:20

one.

Caroline 2:20

I mean, it's just with vodka, so, makes it a little bit more adult. Yeah, no. What about you?

Anne 2:28

I love an espresso martini to start the evening off if I know I'm gonna be staying up late, because my normal bedtime's like 9:00, so. And yeah, if it's like a summer evening, I, love a sauv blanc. and if I'm home on the couch, it's a pinot noir.

Caroline 2:42

can I give people my on the couch at home drink? i-

Anne 2:45

What's your on the couch at home drink?

Caroline 2:47

both of the characters in this story would be vomiting by what I do.

Anne 2:51

Okay.

Caroline 2:51

I basically take, a can of pink grapefruit flavored seltzer water, Schweppes or Schweppepees as TikTok calls it,

Anne 3:00

She's

Caroline 3:01

of Kim Crawford, sauvignon blanc, and I drop in a little of my THC can seltzers blood orange.

Anne 3:09

very complex.

Caroline 3:11

very citrusy.

Anne 3:13

I don't think uh Luche Luchesi, Luchesi would approve.

Caroline 3:17

No, I don't think so either.

Anne 3:19

Well, would the promise of whatever that concoction No, me neither. like a pinot noir, but I'm not. gonna follow someone into a crypt for it.

Caroline 3:35

What would make you, like a puppy?

Anne 3:37

I would probably go to a kidnapper for a puppy. I would like get into a van for a puppy.

Caroline 3:42

I don't think I would.

Anne 3:43

I wouldn't. I know better, but like

Caroline 3:45

No, I mean, I just, I'm like, I already have two dogs. I think that's enough.

Anne 3:49

a brand new golden retriever puppy.

Caroline 3:51

That's true.

Anne 3:52

cute when they're all fluffy and floppy.

Caroline 3:54

So cute.

Anne 3:54

Anyway, the reason I ask is because today we are discussing Edgar Allan Poe's short story of vengeance, "The Cask of Amontillado." Now, I have heard this pronounced both ways, I've just decided I'm gonna go with the silent L. I've looked it up on Reddit. People argue, so I'm just going that way. That's, I guess... It's Spanish, so that would be the correct pronunciation. What do you prefer? Amontillado, What do you think?

Caroline 4:16

would think a macchiato, but I don't speak Spanish, so...

Anne 4:20

Me neither, so I'm putting on airs for sure. Um, well, like Luchizzy, I cannot tell Amontillado from sherry, so a Montresor could not fool me by appealing to my knowledge of fine wines. I'm a cheapest wine on the menu kinda girl.

Caroline 4:35

Mm-hmm.

Anne 4:35

Before we get too far into this, spoiler and content warning. The word ejaculated is used, so if you have a middle school sense of humor, like Caroline,

Caroline 4:44

That's so true.

Anne 4:46

Did you notice that

Caroline 4:47

Of course I did. course I did. Sorry, you're gonna laugh also at, like, some of my other notes. They are very middle school.

Anne 4:54

Middle school sense of humor. Great. That'll be so much fun. other triggers might include fears of being buried alive, darkness, dungeons, moist, damp environments, claustrophobia, being chained up, And

Caroline 5:14

Yeah.

Anne 5:25

The Yellow Wallpaper" is 1892, Chicago World's Fair with Devil in the White City, but A Christmas Carol was 1843, and this is 1846, so our second oldest thing technically.

Caroline 5:35

Mm.

Anne 5:36

If you want to go off and read it, you can search in your podcast app, and it takes probably 15 to 30 minutes depending on who's delivering the tale. All right so spoilers coming.. Edgar Allan Poe's 1846 short story, "The Cask of Amontillado," begins with our narrator, Montresor, telling an unknown listener about being deeply insulted by a man named Fortunato, fate is about to get really bad. Though the nature of the insult is not disclosed, Montresor has vowed vengeance. Since Fortunato fancies himself a connoisseur of wine- Montresor tempts him to leave the festive carnival he was getting drunk at, and follow him into the deep, dark, bone-lined catacombs of his palazzo, where he claims a cask of coveted Amontillado awaits. Montresor feigns reluctance to

Caroline 6:19

So basic, dark?

Anne 7:04

Yeah, it's dark. I thought ruthless, because Montresor is ruthless. It's like this relentless journey towards death and vengeance. He never questions himself. it's simple. a guy wants revenge, he tricks his victim, vengeance is achieved. So I like the ruthless simplicity of it. I think you mentioned you went through a Poe stage?

Caroline 7:24

I did, like seventh grade, I was really obsessive, and so I had a book of short stories, actually that I still have, 'cause when I cleaned my parents' house, I found it. but it was pretty brief, but I was very into them for a minute.

Anne 7:37

but intense.

Caroline 7:38

Brief but intense, yeah, like seventh grade obsessions are.

Anne 7:41

Yeah. what's your favorite Poe story?

Caroline 7:43

probably "The Raven." I just really enjoyed "The Raven" a lot. and "The Pit and the Pendulum" it's very basic stuff. I'm not super deep, I guess.

Anne 7:52

The... re-listened to just a bunch of these, I guess that's my, uh, my palate cleanser is that I went for a walk at dusk while my son was at his footy practice, and I just, walked around the block listening to The Tell-Tale Heart as it was getting dark, and I was like, "This is deliciously creepy."

Caroline 8:07

that's also hard too, yeah. I mean, the ones that stood out to me, I think, are probably just the ones that got reinforced through pop culture and stuff, I might have had a different opinion at the time. I don't even remember now.

Anne 8:18

And we have a connection to this because we used to hang out in Fells Point a lot and go to The Horse You Rode In On,

Caroline 8:24

I

Anne 8:25

that claims to be the site of Poe's last drink. It's rumored to be haunted by him, and bartenders apparently leave out a shot for him. Did you know that when we were hanging out there?

Caroline 8:33

did know that. and when I went to Baltimore this year for the first time in, like, 15 or so years, I went by that bar, and I almost went in, but it was like, you know, college kids were inside. I was like, "Nah, I'm not gonna do that."

Anne 8:45

shouldn't be a college kid bar. It should be, like, a goth writer bar,

Caroline 8:49

Yeah.

Anne 8:50

right? Like, why is it a college kid bar? It

Caroline 8:52

Probably 'cause it,

Anne 8:53

that.

Caroline 8:53

because it's where it is,

Anne 8:54

It's where it is, yeah. I don't think I knew, or I was just too drunk to notice. I don't know.

Caroline 8:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne 9:00

new information to me. my first Poe memory is going on a haunted hayride as a kid, and one of the scenes was a recreation of "The Pit and the Pendulum," and

Caroline 9:08

And D- don't you have UVA connection?

Anne 9:20

my sister-in-law did her PhD there,

Caroline 9:22

Okay.

Anne 9:22

was living there for a while, so we used to go. So

Caroline 9:24

Yeah.

Anne 9:25

UVA

Caroline 9:26

did you see his dorm?

Anne 9:27

I feel like I saw a statue. I don't

Caroline 9:29

I remember when I visited UVA, I being like, "Take me to the dorm," or something like that.

Anne 9:34

you were creepy back then too.

Caroline 9:35

Yeah. Oh, I've always been creepy.

Anne 9:38

I know. Which is why I, I asked you to palcast with me.

Caroline 9:41

Yeah.

Anne 9:42

Um, most recently, in the past few years, Mike Flanagan's Fall of the House of Usher came out. Have you seen that yet?

Caroline 9:47

No, I haven't, but I w- I want to.

Anne 9:50

It's on my list. and at the time, I kind of went on a kick. I came across this great book called "His Hideous Heart," which is contemporary YA writers retelling Poe short stories. And the one about this is like a... street fair in Brooklyn, the person is getting revenge for, like, sexual harassment or abuse or something like that. It was pretty good.

Caroline 10:08

Interesting. And actually, we were speaking last time about inferiority complexes and stuff among cities, and did you know that, like, Poe had a connection to Boston as well?

Anne 10:18

in my Poe deep dive over the past few weeks, he's everywhere.

Caroline 10:22

Yeah.

Anne 10:23

back and forth, back and forth, and I'm just like, Wasn't it hard to travel back then?"

Caroline 10:26

I know.

Anne 10:27

went here, and then he went there," and

Caroline 10:28

cause my brother, who works at Emerson and went to Emerson they did this whole, theatrical debate about which city really should be able to s- claim c- Poe as theirs,

Anne 10:40

What did they

Caroline 10:42

do you think Emerson concluded?

Anne 10:43

Boston,

Caroline 10:44

Yeah,

Anne 10:44

But I think he did spend more time there the UVA time was short-lived. And then he died in Baltimore. I don't know.

Caroline 10:50

it's so interesting, 'cause I, I totally think of him as being Baltimore's. I mean, they're the Ravens, I, I think of him as being Baltimore's. I was like, "What? Boston?"

Anne 11:00

Well one story that I read for the first time that I don't think I had encountered before was Bernice Have you read that

Caroline 11:05

No. Well, maybe.

Anne 11:07

it's fucked Skip 30 seconds if you don't want spoilers for Bernice but it's about a guy cousin/wife dies or so he thinks and he becomes obsessed with her teeth and thinks about her teeth all the time and ends up waking up covered in blood to discover he's removed all the teeth from her dead body but she was actually still alive and it's like so fucked up Like what kind of imagination do you have to come up with that

Caroline 11:29

I don't think I read that

Anne 11:30

well it's really quite dull for most of it

Caroline 11:33

Mm

Anne 11:34

and I was listening to it and My mind was drifting But then by the end pretty dark So Poe leaves us with a lot of dark grim gothic psychological stories about death possession isolation guilt madness and he was apparently terrified of being buried alive So a number of his stories including the one we're discussing today deal with that in The Premature Burial one of his stories he writes The boundaries which divide life and death are at best shadowy and vague Who shall say where the one ends and where the other begins Creepy And another important part of his legacy is that he wrote The Murders in the Rue Morgue which is considered to be the first detective story and influenced Arthur Conan Doyle

Caroline 12:12

Hmm.

Anne 12:13

So what do you know about his life other than lots of city hopping and death in Baltimore and university at UVA

Caroline 12:20

I used to know more. There's something about a love interest that I'm forgetting, though.

Anne 12:25

Yeah

Caroline 12:25

Did she die of illness?

Anne 12:27

Lots of tuberculosis

Caroline 12:28

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Anne 12:29

Well he was a cat lover Legend has it that his

Caroline 12:32

Oh, I did know that. Yeah.

Anne 12:34

Yeah like that sounds nicer than it would be in real life Like Oh a cat on my shoulder but it's like claws heaviness lack of balance

Caroline 12:40

Yeah.

Anne 12:41

would actually be pretty unpleasant So for a guy with a creepy dark imagination you can kind of see why He had a really sad life Born in Boston

Caroline 12:50

Mm.

Anne 12:51

his father abandoned him and his mother was a renowned actress and he used to watch her on stage but she died when he was a toddler of tuberculosis something which would the women in his life just a little side note on tuberculosis no antibiotics until 1944 which ties into our Tuskegee Syphilis study episode I exist of My grandfather had spent six years in a sanitarium with tuberculosis and only got out because of antibiotics obviously and then went on to get married and have my mom and why I exist So shout out once more to modern medicine we discussed last week in our Devil in the White City episode this is a time when life was fleeting

Caroline 13:31

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 13:31

he was adopted by the Allan family who were pretty loaded they brought him to England He went to boarding school there so a lot of his education was over there really fraught relationship with his stepdad John Allan like he quiet quit West Point basically to like spite him lots of arguments over money and this guy had a lot of money And it was interesting because I listened to basically two on this the dollop And Dave Anthony and Gareth really seemed to come down on Poe's side as like a teenager with this hard-ass stepdad who's like going too hard on him And then I listened to Two Girls One Ghost and Corinne and Sabrina came down on like the stepdad side as someone who was trying his best and Poe just couldn't get his act together And I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between

Caroline 14:12

and I will say Dave and his dad don't have the best relationships,

Anne 14:16

Okay so this is being seen through his lens

Caroline 14:18

his, dad has now passed, and I actually don't know about Gareth and his dad, but I know that Dave's dad, it's a fraught situation.

Anne 14:26

They read some really nasty letters between the two of them So if you wanna get into that detail check out the Dollop episode I can't

Caroline 14:32

Yeah.

Anne 14:33

but it was really good

Caroline 14:34

I think it is. I, I remember listening to that one too.

Anne 14:37

As we said he went to UVA which they discussed was a crazy violent place at the time put it as like the father wasn't giving or the stepfather wasn't giving him enough money and then he gambled to try to make up for it and then ended up in worse debt

Caroline 14:51

The other argument is debatable. This one I feel like is pretty clear. Gambling is not the way to deal with that situation.

Anne 14:56

Yeah gambling is not a way to make more money

Caroline 14:58

No.

Anne 14:59

No Three dead mother figures his real mom stepmom then this friend's mom whose grave site he used to like linger at and cry at a quote from him The want of parental affection has been the heaviest of my trials

Caroline 15:13

Mm.

Anne 15:14

that makes me really sad for him right

Caroline 15:17

Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 15:17

So this is where we get that guy who feels everything deeply and lost all the important women in his life at a young age and we get our image of this emo moody pining sorrowful version of him right And at this point sympathy is like 100 with him because I was listening to the Dollop and I'm feeling really bad for this guy Life's been unfair I find out he falls in love with his 12-year-old cousin Virginia who he watched grow up from the age of six

Caroline 15:42

I was gonna say, but wasn't the love interest, like, super young? 'Cause I feel like I remember that. Yeah.

Anne 15:49

young And like we can't attribute this infatuation to like the time because even people at the time were like Dude major side eye That's gross

Caroline 15:56

Yeah. I couldn't remember 'cause I feel like I listened to the Ben Franklin one soon after, and he also was, like, a philanderer of some kind.

Anne 16:03

With

Caroline 16:04

thought I... No, just, I think a cousin or some- someone related. Maybe I'm mis-

Anne 16:08

dating their

Caroline 16:09

Yeah.

Anne 16:09

that was kinda normal but like 12-year-old cousins

Caroline 16:12

Yeah.

Anne 16:13

Yeah and then Bernice she's his cousin Don't worry his sister Don't worry It's his cousin So yeah he was 27 and she was like 13 or 14 when they finally got married Um some people say he was impotent and the marriage was never actually consummated or he waited until she was older but either way it's pretty gross And I have a Poe like stuffed toy on my desk at work you know just to show the English staff room I'm a little creepy but now I'm like Hmm do I want this would this guy have been in the Epstein files I don't know

Caroline 16:43

no I don't think he would've been in the Epstein files because I don't think he would've gone for, like, strangers, but not because he wouldn't have gone for, like, children, which is what apparently

Anne 16:53

totally. Women he did pursue it was all very intense like lots of letters and pining and stuff like that So yeah not particularly interested in strangers And you know as a guy with probably some poor attachment stuff going on maybe that's why he latched onto his cousin

Caroline 17:08

Yeah, trust and abandonment issues or whatever. Not excusing the age thing, but...

Anne 17:13

No Excusing the cousin thing No No we're not excusing that

Caroline 17:19

No, not excusing anything, just more being, like, not strangers, but it- people they know.

Anne 17:24

Yeah So then his life is this mix of respect because The Raven really popular and recognized in its time so lots of accolades for that but also like poverty debt alcoholism depression he wanted to make enough to live on his writing but copyright wasn't really a thing yet So papers would just reprint your work without compensating you so it was really hard to actually make it as a writer still hard to make it as a writer financially but at least your work is protected Not from AI

Caroline 17:50

Right, and I was gonna say, like, there's a lot of digital creators, I think, that would understand this now because sometimes I stumble upon someone on TikTok who does something I like. there's a guy who lays down in a blanket and shows clips of videos that are unnecessarily super long or multiple chapters, and he just, like, recaps it really quickly for you so you don't have to watch those stupid videos. And I, can't find his actual original account. I just keep finding people who are reposting his stuff for views. So I think that happens a lot. Right, like

Anne 18:21

financial gains

Caroline 18:22

give him the views or the time or whatever, and I c- I don't know which account is actually his.

Anne 18:27

Maybe you should comment and ask

Caroline 18:30

Good idea. I don't like to comment on TikTok, but maybe I'll do that.

Anne 18:33

Okay alcoholism was definitely a problem and some of the things I read say that his characterization as an alcoholic could be slightly unfair Sometimes people say he was just like a really light drunk

Caroline 18:45

Hmm.

Anne 18:45

Like that he When he got drunk he was a lightweight and he would get publicly soused and out of control Now Virginia his child's cousin wife uh eventually dies of tuberculosis

Caroline 18:55

I

Anne 18:56

at 24 Broke his heart I said he pursued other women somewhat obnoxiously like renaming one Annie uh proposing to several planning weddings with one writing love letters to another overdosing on laudanum when a marriage proposal was refused I got all the names mixed up but again check out The Dollop if you want the details And it left me with the impression that this is the sort of guy who would kinda treat you like shit but then jump into your grave with you when you died and like clutch at you in rigor mortis A lot of performative grief and he liked to pick a fight if he had had access to Twitter the public feuds would have been wild there's even suspicion he created his own persona to talk himself up Trump has done as

Caroline 19:35

was gonna say Trump y- yeah, exactly. That's a Trump tactic. But I wonder, is there anything about... him being abusive to the women other than, statutory rape?

Anne 19:45

I don't think so I think like

Caroline 19:46

Okay.

Anne 19:47

emotional manipulation

Caroline 19:49

Interesting.

Anne 19:49

but I don't think there was anything about physical abuse He went after James Fenimore Cooper He's the author of Last of the Mohicans for having inanimate characters He attacked Longfellow accusing him of plagiarism and being quacky a word that will come up in this story hated the Boston elite so it's interesting that Boston wanted to claim him cause apparently he showed up at some poetry reading where everyone was like all excited to hear him and then just recited like the most rubbish childish poem that just to like spite them

Caroline 20:16

Hmm.

Anne 20:17

And he got into a fight with the man who would ultimately write his obituary this guy Griswold So I don't know If anyone deserves to be walled up for 1,000 insults it's probably Poe

Caroline 20:25

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:26

which makes me wonder who is Fortunato on Because the real Poe would bury someone with scathing criticism not in an actual dungeon as far as we know but perhaps his inspiration for the story was the feeling that he has been insulted I just thought that was kind of interesting Like who who does he view as sympathetic in this story if either character

Caroline 20:45

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:45

here's some examples of his criticism about this woman Margaret Fuller Of course he went after her looks cause she's a woman The upper lip as if impelled by the action of involuntary muscles habitually uplifts itself conveying the impression of a sneer Some guy named Mr Lord The only remarkable thing about Mr Lord's compositions are their remarkable conceit ignorance impudence platitude stupidity and bombast

Caroline 21:09

feel like I'm having flashes of like in, those "Seinfeld" recap episodes when they're like, "He's a close talker." She's such a face right now.

Anne 21:19

What would he have said Yeah

Caroline 21:20

Mm-hmm.

Anne 21:21

let's see a by Susan Rigby Morgan he said It should be read by all who have nothing better to do And of Theodore S Fay his prose was unworthy of a schoolboy

Caroline 21:33

Yeesh.

Anne 21:33

called some guy who was like in charge of don't know like a magazine Insufferably tedious and dull writer and then he tried to submit his story to the same guy who was like Go away So he definitely burned bridges here's one Briggs

Caroline 21:45

Nice.

Anne 21:45

never composed in his life three consecutive sentences of grammatical English He's grossly uneducated So just like picking fights all over the place and I'm sure there's more he died at 40 in Baltimore as you said hence the Ravens

Caroline 21:58

Mm-hmm.

Anne 21:58

were you that time we saw the Ravens at uh Rudy's

Caroline 22:01

Like win the Super Bowl?

Anne 22:02

No I I feel like

Caroline 22:03

Oh, saw players?

Anne 22:05

Yeah like they came to the bar

Caroline 22:07

Oh, no.

Anne 22:07

Ravens guys like showed up at a bar

Caroline 22:09

At Rudy's?

Anne 22:11

Maybe my memory is wrong but but in my head it was Rudy's

Caroline 22:15

Oh, m- were they just looking for underage girls?

Anne 22:20

Probably But all I remember is that they were massive

Caroline 22:24

Yeah, they're... Yeah

Anne 22:25

see these football players on the field and they all look big but then when you see them in real life against normal people they were just like the biggest people I'd ever seen

Caroline 22:33

No, I, I wasn't there, but I, once stayed at a hotel that, the Falcons were staying at, and I was in an elevator with, Michael Vick or something, and I was like, "Jesus Christ." Like, they're, yeah, massive.

Anne 22:45

Well death is very mysterious He was found delirious reeking of alcohol not wearing his own clothes which makes some people say he was a victim of cooping Do you know what that

Caroline 22:56

No.

Anne 22:56

they basically kidnap somebody and get them wasted and then take them to vote and then they make them change their clothes and take them to vote again it's voter fraud

Caroline 23:04

Oh, goodness.

Anne 23:05

like within the time that he was found

Caroline 23:07

Oh, don't tell Trump about that.

Anne 23:08

Yeah just start kidnapping people and making them vote We should bring that back

Caroline 23:14

Hmm.

Anne 23:23

And somehow this guy Griswold who hated him up being the one to get like the honor of writing his obituary and have control over his collected works And he said in the obituary This announcement will startle many not be grieved by it Don't hold back Whoever tells the truth no postmortem glossing over that

Caroline 23:42

Hmm.

Anne 23:43

Poe definitely got a postmortem roast And his last words were Lord help my poor soul which is sort of similar to the story we're about to discuss

Caroline 23:53

how verified is that? Because we've talked about this a couple times, the whole last words thing, and I feel like I've watched a bunch of, like, slideshows on Instagram of, last words, and I, I don't buy it. Bob Marley's last words were, "Money can't buy life." I think...

Anne 24:09

I I disagree

Caroline 24:11

Karl Marx's last words were, "Last words are for fools who haven't said enough." Da Vinci's, "I've offended God and mankind because my work did not reach the quality it should have." Bullshit.

Anne 24:22

Bullshit

Caroline 24:23

Bullshit. Bullshit.

Anne 24:25

you're dying of an illness I don't think your mind is feeling that

Caroline 24:30

I, have watched parents slowly die, I will tell you their last words were nothing like this. I like Oscar Wilde's supposed last words, "This wallpaper is dreadful. One of us will have to go." That's funny, but I also doubt it.

Anne 24:45

Yeah

Caroline 24:46

the, the most realistic one I've ever seen is Steve Jobs, and he said, "Oh, wow," like three times, and I think that that sounds legit.

Anne 24:53

Well the one we talked about last week in Devil in the White City was him referring to like hearing music right

Caroline 24:58

Right.

Anne 24:59

kind of brings me a sense of hope that he was hearing something peaceful in those last moments

Caroline 25:03

Marie Antoinette, her last words were, "Pardon me, sir, I didn't do it on purpose," 'cause she stepped on the executioner's foot. Like, of course, she was executed. Fine. That's legit. But,

Anne 25:12

Yeah that

Caroline 25:12

these other ones, I don't, I don't think so.

Anne 25:14

Yeah I think there's been some uh gilding the lily over time for sure

Caroline 25:18

Absolutely.

Anne 25:19

Well some fun facts In The Simpsons Mr Burns tries and fails to wall up Homer all good works of significance they get mentions in The Simpsons Poe himself is was known as a heavy drinker as we said so it's kind of interesting that Montresor is sober while the victim is drunk

Caroline 25:35

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:36

the motto means No one provokes me with impunity or No one attacks me with impunity which is also the national motto of Scotland

Caroline 25:44

Oh.

Anne 25:45

yeah And it might be based on a legend he heard when he was young and he was at Fort Independence in 1827 There was a story

Caroline 25:52

Wait,

Anne 25:56

the soldiers would talk about this legend and then significantly later in 1905 a body was found chained up to a wall so maybe it was all true Another fun fact if you play The Sims you can wall up your Sim Many sadistic Sims players have done that to watch them pee their pants and beg

Caroline 26:12

Did you?

Anne 26:13

Yeah

Caroline 26:13

Y- you were a sadistic Sims player.

Anne 26:16

Everybody was Anyone who denies it is like saying they didn't like their Barbie's hair and tie them up and stuff I don't believe you

Caroline 26:22

I didn't do that.

Anne 26:24

with We hung We have a picture that my mom took My sister and I had hung all of our Barbies by their hair from the shower curtain We

Caroline 26:31

Oh my God.

Anne 26:32

it Yeah You didn't torture your Barbies

Caroline 26:35

I didn't. I really wanted to be them too much,

Anne 26:38

Okay

Caroline 26:39

I idolized them, I think, a little too much.

Anne 26:41

Okay now I feel like I'm the weird one

Caroline 26:44

We're both delightfully weird in different ways.

Anne 26:49

All right let's talk a little bit about the context written in the 1840s but it's set in kind of an unspecified time during Carnival and the characters mention palazzos so we are in Italy and as we mentioned this was a time when people were legitimately concerned about being buried alive do you remember when you first found out about the origin of the expression Saved by the bell

Caroline 27:08

Well, I remember the Wine and Crime episode very, very clearly, learning all of this about the bell and everything. Yeah.

Anne 27:14

Oh so you didn't know about

Caroline 27:15

No. No. I learned about it from Wine and Crime.

Anne 27:19

like while watching Saved by the Bell

Caroline 27:21

Oh,

Anne 27:22

that somebody told me Oh do you know what the that really means And I remember being like Whoa that's so cool Blew my mind yeah check out that Wine and Crime episode It's got a lot more

Caroline 27:30

really?

Anne 27:31

it so people are making merry i.e getting wasted dressed up Fortunato is dressed up as a jester with jingling bells but then the other half of the setting we get is really contrasted with those crypts in Montresor's palazzo which are claustrophobic and dark damp They're bone-lined very Gothic and it reminded me of some of the settings that we've seen in like Mexican Gothic and del Toro's Frankenstein which also has kind of underground crypts

Caroline 27:58

Mm-hmm.

Anne 27:59

And I love some of those descriptions Like we get to descend the long and winding staircase It's torchlit There are walls of piled bones and here's a quote from it range of low arches descended passed on and descending again arrived at a deep crypt in which the foulness of the air caused our flambeau rather to glow than flame So I'm picturing like the tombs in Venice in Indiana Jones Holy Grail

Caroline 28:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:22

with all the bones One thing Fortunato he just said he bought this cask of Ama Amontillado right

Caroline 28:28

Yeah.

Anne 28:28

is it in the deepest level of his crypt Like if you just got some delivery guys you'd like put it in the kitchen right

Caroline 28:34

Totally.

Anne 28:34

Not in the deepest deepest darkest bone-lined crypt He should have asked a few more questions

Caroline 28:40

Absolutely

Anne 28:41

And there's nitre which I had to look up It's a white water-soluble crystalline So I guess you just wanna picture a cave with like white stuff growing on the walls and it makes Fortunato cough which gives Montresor the opportunity to feign concern

Caroline 28:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:54

So some interesting aesthetic features literary devices This is a dramatic monologue right Because he starts with You who so well know the nature of my soul and at the end Montresor reveals that this happened fifty years ago so we don't know who he's talking to and why he's telling this story is it a deathbed confession But he doesn't seem very sorry Is he bragging But it's got that framing We get the symbolism and foreshadowing of the crest the foot crushing a serpent whose fangs are embedded in the heel Bite me and I'll crush you Um then we get the contrast in their clothing Fortunato his head was surmounted by the conical cap and bell so he's like in a jester costume so he's a fool And in contrast Montresor has a black silk mask on and a cloak Some other foreshadowing the trowel Montresor has some dark humor when Fortunato says he won't die from a cough Montresor's like True Right And you know I always think when I'm reading something like this where I know the story like same thing with you know we're talking about Silence of the Lambs next week Like I know all the twists

Caroline 29:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 29:54

can't remember a time when I didn't But I always think about like what it would be like to read this not knowing was intended by the end then being like Oh he had the trowel and you know

Caroline 30:03

Mm-hmm

Anne 30:04

those little clues later on Cause yeah I can't remember a time when I didn't know he wasn't screwed

Caroline 30:08

Can I tell you a super embarrassing story related to this sort of concept? It's a tangent. so unique a city, which it is. And I also was alone all the time as a kid, And we had family in New York, When my mom would drive me into New York, I would sit in the backseat, and I would pretend to be twins- for

Anne 30:36

Oh

Caroline 30:39

And I would, like, look out the window like, "Oh my God," pretend that it's my first time seeing New York because I, I was, jealous of, the people who would be seeing it for the first time. I would be like, "I wonder what it would be like to see this," you know, and not have seen it.

Anne 30:54

awe

Caroline 30:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 30:58

That's cute so let's talk about characters What do you think about Montresor

Caroline 31:03

twisted?

Anne 31:03

Yeah I wanna quote Rick from The Mummy 2 Lighten up

Caroline 31:09

Yeah.

Anne 31:10

what did he do Right

Caroline 31:10

Yeah.

Anne 31:11

uh no

Caroline 31:12

And I was trying to think of the connection of, like, It's connected to Goodfellas, right?

Anne 31:18

the White City

Caroline 31:20

But how?

Anne 31:21

scary basements

Caroline 31:22

Oh, scary basements. Okay. Cause sorry, I was, thinking about...

Anne 31:26

Amontillado is on the menu in Devil in

Caroline 31:28

Oh, that's right, you said that.

Anne 31:30

so that's

Caroline 31:31

Sorry.

Anne 31:31

connection Yeah

Caroline 31:32

Cause I was also thinking of the whole, like, manipulation in the beginning of, Uh, you don't need to see it." You know, like, he, he kept sorta negging him in the beginning. Just, you know

Anne 31:42

you could compare this to Karen Goodfellas And like whether or not she enters that shop when Jimmy's trying to like push her into the shop

Caroline 31:51

Right.

Anne 31:52

unlike Fortunato she senses the danger

Caroline 31:55

Totally. Well, I guess that's... Like, the manipulation of the victim, I guess, is what made me think of Goodfellas as well, Um s- sort of the method of convincing them that you're their friend and you're looking out for their best interests w- when you're about to murder them.

Anne 32:10

Yeah he's clearly good at pretending to be his friend Like that's why I called him a frenemy because

Caroline 32:14

Yeah.

Anne 32:15

suspects nothing

Caroline 32:17

Nothing.

Anne 32:17

off so willingly with him to a deep dark dungeon okay here's a quote It must be understood that neither by word nor deed had I given Fortunato cause to doubt my

Caroline 32:26

Yeah. Totally. Yeah, that

Anne 32:31

now was at the thought of his immolation that's scary

Caroline 32:35

was

Anne 32:36

flatters him

Caroline 32:37

part that

Anne 32:38

to his vanity He c and he also is like feigns reluctance Like We'll go back Your

Caroline 32:43

think

Anne 32:43

is precious You know

Caroline 32:47

like, a I

Anne 32:49

Yeah it made me think of and I I have not been able to confirm Maybe this is wrong because I was googling it and I remember bringing it up in a past episode and being like I need to confirm it But I'm pretty sure that Ed Kemper when he would pick up hitchhikers would feign reluctance Like he'd look at his watch and be like Oh I don't know

Caroline 33:05

Hmm.

Anne 33:06

make them feel more at ease like it was their idea not his which is so scary and I think you could also make a comparison to Tommy in Goodfellas

Caroline 33:14

Mm-hmm.

Anne 33:14

he's fragile and easily insulted

Caroline 33:16

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 33:17

a and maybe he has a point Like we don't know what Fortunato did but it's not so bad that he could ever suspect vengeance would be wanted because he goes or it is bad and you know Fortunato's just such a dick that he's like Oh he would never do anything

Caroline 33:31

No.

Anne 33:32

So know in terms of our Sympathy You know we we talked about this in Goodfellas as well like where we have sympathy or we empathize with a main character just because we have their perspective right

Caroline 33:43

None.

Anne 33:43

Do you have any empathy for Montresor or is it just like

Caroline 33:47

No.

Anne 33:47

he's the bad guy I've frequently brought up Save the Cat where we get a moment that makes us in some way identify with or sympathize with the protagonist we get that with Henry Hill in Goodfellas but like I don't think there's any moment of redemption or even minor sympathy for Montresor Like he's clearly the bad guy

Caroline 34:04

Absolutely.

Anne 34:05

But I still think that's interesting because given the way that Poe was feeling insulted and picking fights this is like his secret fantasy of vengeance that he doesn't give Montresor any reason for us to empathize with him

Caroline 34:17

Well, he probably thinks he doesn't have

Anne 34:19

you know one of my questions is what did Fortunato do But it's not a criticism because I'm glad we don't know

Caroline 34:26

Yeah.

Anne 34:26

I think it's more effective because we don't know if he deserves his f fate We don't know whose side we should be on that just makes it creepier Having said that why doesn't Fortunato ask like Hey why are you doing this I think that would be like high on my list

Caroline 34:39

for me it's because he's, drunk. he's, in the midst of A party, I guess, essentially, when this all starts, and you don't know how drunk or sober he is at the end, that I guess I allowed for some of that.

Anne 34:52

I think it's for the plot as well if it's like You slept with my wife or You stood me up at my dinner party you know like You smirked at me when you made the Masons gesture like wouldn't be as effective because the mystery is gone

Caroline 35:03

this be, like, a slow process building a wall?

Anne 35:07

up

Caroline 35:07

Yeah.

Anne 35:08

I think that's one of the scarier aspects of it it's slow right That he would have to kind of slowly watch brick by brick by brick

Caroline 35:17

But why would you just stand there and not be like, Dude"?

Anne 35:20

He's fettered He's um chained up

Caroline 35:23

Oh, I think I missed that even though I listened to it twice.

Anne 35:27

Well yeah how quickly he's trapped in an instant he had reached the extremity of the niche And finding his progress arrested by the rock stood stupidly bewildered A moment more and I had fettered him to the granite So it's

Caroline 35:39

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Anne 35:41

but he is he's trapped like he can't move one thing I that just made Montresor seem all the more sociopathic when he's talking about vengeance and his goal of vengeance wants his victim to understand what is happening He says A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its redresser It is equally unredressed when the avenger fails to make himself felt as such to him who has done the wrong Which feels very Olenna Tyrell saying Tell Cersei I want her to know it was me

Caroline 36:11

Mm-hmm.

Anne 36:11

Another thing that I connected it to I think I've I've mentioned the Penguin a couple times now that we're watching that with the unrecognizable Colin Farrell and his character who's also mafia so Goodfellas connection says about his mafia enemies They like to feel big so I make myself small They feel better about themselves and I get back to work But his work is planning to take them out so there's a creepiness to that comment and I think Montresor is doing the same thing to Fortunato like with all the We'll go back Your health is precious You're rich respected admired beloved You are happy as I once was You're a man to be missed

Caroline 36:45

It's definitely a tactic I have had to take professionally as a woman also.

Anne 36:50

Yeah and I wanna talk about that in our Silence of the Lambs episode as well the massaging of egos

Caroline 36:57

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 36:58

to survive Yeah Another thing I think he does is he really he kind of rubs it in before he's even locked locked him up Like he keeps pointing out the nitre Pass your hand over the wall You cannot help feeling the nitre It is very damp before Fortunato knows he's in danger and you know he's gonna have to be in that dark moist horrible environment And then pulling out that trowel is a power move And that's the point where Fortunato should be like Why do you have that

Caroline 37:24

Yeah.

Anne 37:25

Why are you carrying a gardening tool around a masonry tool around with you at carnival You're a duke You don't do the gardening

Caroline 37:30

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Anne 37:31

But then the only point where I kind of sympathize with Montresor is when Fortunato does the Freemason gesture because Then when Montresor's like Oh I am he's like You no way You wouldn't be one So he did that move knowing is not in the Freemasons and I just wonder is that the nature of the 1,000 insults just the nasty death by 1,000 cuts kind of thing So maybe if Montresor was having any doubts that moment was like Nah fuck this guy

Caroline 38:00

We have a Freemasons, temple or whatever in my town It's pretty weird.

Anne 38:05

have you noticed any strange mysterious gestures from people waiting outside it

Caroline 38:09

No, but So my town was a big part of the Revolutionary War, and we have every five years, they reenact, a live battle down Main Street with, like, horses and pyres and all. It's, like, really insane, the level. and the Masons are very much involved. They help to fund it and stuff like that. That's kind of all I know about them.

Anne 38:28

Hmm

Caroline 38:29

door off Main Street, and I've never seen anyone go in or out. It's pretty cool.

Anne 38:33

You know that's the thing now that I wish I had found a Dollop episode on like the Freemasons cause it's one of those things that you know you hear about it from like The Da Vinci Code and

Caroline 38:40

No, I tried to do a bunch of research about it years ago, just trying to be like, "Could my husband get in on this so I can learn more about it?"

Anne 38:48

some networking

Caroline 38:50

Yeah. Well, it was also like infiltrate the people so that you know, you can be like, "Women are also people," you know? Like, I don't

Anne 38:58

would be nice Okay so you're not

Caroline 38:59

know.

Anne 38:59

wanting him there for personal financial gain

Caroline 39:01

Oh, God, not financial. It was totally like c- could you infiltrate this place and make them not vote for Trump?

Anne 39:08

Uh do we think they're Trumpy hey

Caroline 39:09

I don't, know. I was just sort of like a society of men sounds Trumpy. Yeah.

Anne 39:13

probably like more Koch brothers than Trumpy

Caroline 39:16

Yeah. they're probably the greatest generation, and they're maybe not, you know, I don't know.

Anne 39:21

Yeah another thing about Montresor is wants Fortunato to beg there's o one point when Fortunato kind of stops responding and he's like Hey Fortunato Like he wants him groveling and at that point leaves and he blames the dampness for feeling sick at heart But I think Fortunato's silence is taking away from his satisfaction

Caroline 39:40

agree.

Anne 39:41

Well let's talk about Fortunato Ironic name

Caroline 39:43

Yeah.

Anne 39:44

but

Caroline 39:44

Yeah.

Anne 39:45

fortune can also mean fate so perhaps he was fated to that horrific end yeah I think he's a bit of a dick right

Caroline 39:51

True.

Anne 39:51

both these guys are like in palazzos so they're the billionaires of their time and they're engaged in and squabbling over petty grievances so maybe we shouldn't have much sympathy for either of them

Caroline 40:01

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:02

He's a snob Luchisi cannot tell Amontillado from sherry Sick burn

Caroline 40:06

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:07

They call him a quack

Caroline 40:08

Mm-hmm,

Anne 40:09

is language that Poe used to describe James Fenimore Cooper which is wrong given that Last of the Mohicans is considered a classic

Caroline 40:16

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:17

him very insufferable in the way he says Amontillado like

Caroline 40:20

Of

Anne 40:23

Amontillado Do you think he should've been more sus

Caroline 40:26

course.

Anne 40:26

Yeah I mentioned why is the cask not in the kitchen if he's just bought it

Caroline 40:31

Yeah.

Anne 40:31

that this guy's a frenemy and it reminded me of that scene in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo you remember that movie

Caroline 40:37

I read the book.

Anne 40:39

So in the movie the American version with uh what's his name James Bond

Caroline 40:42

Daniel Craig?

Anne 40:43

Yeah with Daniel Craig uh spoiler for The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo

Caroline 40:47

Isn't that,

Anne 40:48

seconds

Caroline 40:50

Yeah.

Anne 40:51

Skip 20 30 seconds ahead but the bad guy says It's hard to believe that the fear of offending can be stronger than the fear of pain But you know what It is because at that point Daniel Craig knows something's up and he knows he should leave but he doesn't cause the guy offers him a drink or something Another really good movie with James McAvoy called Speak No Evil where he's really scary and You know when the they basically attack this family and when the dad of the family they're attacking asks like Why are you doing this to us He's like Because you let us And it's the same thing like they knew They felt uncomfortable They knew something was off but they couldn't face that anyone could do what he's doing to them and so they don't get out

Caroline 41:28

fuck politeness.

Anne 41:29

Fuck politeness which wasn't established as a I guess a psychological concept until 1969 so that's what is it anger bargaining depression and acceptance So at first he's obviously shocked denial he doesn't get it Then we get anger because of the furious vibrations of the chain There's a succession of loud and shrill screams then there's bargaining he's like Ha-ha this is a good joke Like an excellent joke We'll laugh about this later Eh you know they'll be looking for me What about my wife And then finally acceptance he goes silent and that's the part that Montresor doesn't like He wants him begging and he calls back to him like a serial killer whose crime isn't living up to the fantasy And I love that when you know I see this in like Macbeth where a writer from so long ago still can touch on to psychology like to human psychology and behavior and reveal this truth about humanity

Caroline 42:29

Mm-hmm.

Anne 42:30

long ago before we had the words to describe what Fortunato's going through

Caroline 42:33

Mm-hmm. I think, his end realization, I guess the acceptance part.

Anne 42:42

Yeah where he goes silent

Caroline 42:43

Yeah.

Anne 42:44

For me I think the quickness of the fettering like when he fetters him to the wall it's like so sudden which reminds me of Silence of the Lambs which we'll discuss next time also as we said the way Montresor keeps telling him to go forward reminds me of Jimmy and Karen in Goodfellas

Caroline 42:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:00

and yeah the slowness of the ascent of the wall Like he specifically says it's 11 tiers so the horror of being slowly walled up like knowing it's happening not being able to do anything about it and didn't even give him the wine even get

Caroline 43:13

Yeah.

Anne 43:14

right Like what the fuck Anyway and the thought

Caroline 43:16

Ugh,

Anne 43:16

just how long he

Caroline 43:17

I

Anne 43:17

in there

Caroline 43:18

don't

Anne 43:18

or water it's it's a nightmare Gives me the chills just like thinking about it

Caroline 43:23

about

Anne 43:23

I can't help it I think about it and this part So at one point Fortunato's screaming and then Montresor says I re-echoed I aided I surpassed them in volume and in strength I did this and the clamor grew still So Montresor's screaming back at him

Caroline 43:39

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:40

is so creepy and Buffalo Bill does that in Silence of the Lambs to Catherine Martin having and read these two pieces of media in succession I'm seeing kind of like when we did Rosemary's Baby and Yellow Wallpaper like I didn't realize how much they had in common until I engaged with them back to back All right What do you think is some of the horror beneath the surface

Caroline 44:00

I mean, I often think about this, the random acts of violence that aren't necessarily opportunistic, but they're related to some unrealized or unrecognized insult.

Anne 44:10

Mm I'm more scared of opportunistic than this because I don't think I would offend anyone that much I don't

Caroline 44:18

you don't know. You don't know if you have. And, I don't even mean offending, but like, Oh, she changed in front of her window every night. She must have known what she was do-" You know, like...

Anne 44:27

Yeah yeah yeah the way your actions can be misinterpreted I'm

Caroline 44:30

whether you intended accidentally or weren't even doing something that was threatening, but it was perceived as threatening or an insult, that I think is what sticks with me as a horror. Everyone who listens to this is gonna be like, "You fucking idiot," but when I was in college, I remember, I had a friend who was a roommate also, and something had happened to her that was upsetting, and it was, I think, related to her family. I had a lot of, like, family-related embarrassing things happening as I was growing up, and I never wanted anyone to mention it. And so I never asked her about it because I, I thought that's how you would've wanted it to be handled. And then she was upset with me later. She was like, "You never asked me how's it going with XYZ." And I just was like, Oh my God," like, I actively thought I was doing the right...

Anne 45:14

Yeah

Caroline 45:15

actively was not mentioning it because I thought you would be upset if I did, and now I know that I was actively insulting you you know?

Anne 45:23

Yeah it's so hard to know how to act when someone's going through it

Caroline 45:27

Yeah.

Anne 45:28

I I struggle with the correct response as well

Caroline 45:30

When I've started just being like, How do you want me to be?" You know? Like,

Anne 45:34

Yeah

Caroline 45:34

what do you need?" What is helpful for you?" Yeah

Anne 45:36

In general now I do ask if I know someone's going through it But I say like You don't have to talk about y you know like whatever but I'm here that kind

Caroline 45:43

Yeah. I still kind of don't, a bit, 'cause I think it was just so ingrained in me that, like, I don't wanna talk about it if something's happening, so, like, I don't wanna be asked.

Anne 45:51

We're also New Englanders

Caroline 45:53

Exactly.

Anne 45:54

privacy We avoid outward conflict You know so like I think the places where we grew up it impacts how you behave

Caroline 46:02

this person I was talking about wasn't from New England, so like, so

Anne 46:06

I'm granting you privacy like I'm respecting

Caroline 46:08

Yeah.

Anne 46:09

what you were thinking

Caroline 46:10

Totally.

Anne 46:11

Another deeper horror hangover thirst So Fortunato is drunk

Caroline 46:15

Mm.

Anne 46:15

Montresor is feeding him red wine as they walk through those crypts And you know red wine mouth right Like that awful sticky feeling where you really need a drink So very soon Fortunato is going to have that feeling and the thought of being hungover without water for like days And I I know like whether he was drunk or not he would've gotten to a point of dehydration and dying of thirst and it would've been awful But like it just makes me feel ill like that he was also hungover

Caroline 46:37

every time somebody is bound for any amount of time, I'm like, "Where are they gonna pee?" because I constantly have to pee. I have to pee all the time,

Anne 46:44

That's a good point

Caroline 46:45

that's all I was thinking about.

Anne 46:47

Uh deceit that someone could despise you and be plotting against you but present as friendly as you said Envy right Like I think perhaps Montresor's of Fortunato is envy cause he says You're rich respected admired beloved as I once was

Caroline 47:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 47:03

I don't wanna be sexist here but male fragility resulting in violence I know everyone can be fragile and easily insulted but one gender's fragility is more likely to result in violence than the other

Caroline 47:14

Yes.

Anne 47:18

yep

Caroline 47:18

We all, we all know that famous Margaret Atwood quote at this point,

Anne 47:22

Yes yes what is it Men

Caroline 47:25

Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

Anne 47:29

And just being buried alive In that Wine and Crime episode they were discussing people who were exhumed for some reason or another and found with like their hair torn out their clothing ripped to pieces their nails scratched down to nubs and I felt nauseous listening to it Like it's so horrendous to consider But one thing that made me feel a little bit better is that they probably didn't die of thirst and starvation after days and days and days because at least if you're buried alive in like a coffin run out of oxygen pretty quickly And potentially get peaceful because you're you know like breathing out carbon dioxide You might just pass out

Caroline 48:02

and I think, there's also a lot of stories of people who have been, stabbed or shot or whatever and don't remember feeling the pain part of it, more like the pressure or something like that. Like, I do think your body works to defend you in a lot of these situations, I hope.

Anne 48:18

don't think that would work for Fortunato though because he's in a pretty big space

Caroline 48:21

Yeah.

Anne 48:22

I think there's air movement more likely and so I think he's he's got a while to go He's gonna be in there for a while

Caroline 48:28

Oof.

Anne 48:29

and I would hope that most of the people buried alive by mistake because they were presumed dead or in a coma and woke up like they would've been pretty unwell right to have been in a coma

Caroline 48:37

Mm-hmm.

Anne 48:37

unconscious long enough that people buried them So I like to think they wouldn't have lasted very long But yeah

Caroline 48:43

And if they're hyperventilating,

Anne 48:45

Yeah like pretty quickly they would run out of air Well do you have any questions that we haven't already discussed

Caroline 48:50

I guess I'm curious about both of their families.

Anne 48:53

Hmm

Caroline 48:54

the main guy, Montresor, all of his staff was gone. Is he unattached in any way? I g- I guess so, but then,

Anne 49:02

I mean that's

Caroline 49:02

Fortu-

Anne 49:02

I wouldn't wanna be married to

Caroline 49:03

no,

Anne 49:04

Like

Caroline 49:05

Fortunato mentions, right, a wife, but, like, does he have ki- I don't... I, I guess I wonder about their familial circumstances.

Anne 49:13

Maybe Fortunato stole his girlfriend years before and

Caroline 49:17

Maybe.

Anne 49:18

Hmm just the usual questions What did he do What are the a thousand insults Does he deserve it And who's he confessing to

Caroline 49:27

I guess it's like, in my mind, I assume, like, a therapist w- was that a thing?

Anne 49:31

I don't think that's a thing Maybe a

Caroline 49:32

Yeah. Mm.

Anne 49:33

He says like You who know me so well or something so it's

Caroline 49:36

the... I get...

Anne 49:37

well

Caroline 49:37

yeah.

Anne 49:38

Maybe it's his wife

Caroline 49:38

Maybe.

Anne 49:39

Do you have any criticism

Caroline 49:41

No.

Anne 49:41

neither I I I have questions

Caroline 49:43

Yeah

Anne 49:44

I wanna know but I think it's effective because we don't know

Caroline 49:46

Exactly.

Anne 49:47

All right survival What do we learn about staying alive in this crazy world

Caroline 49:51

the whole fuck politeness thing.

Anne 49:53

Always

Caroline 49:54

if you have a bad feeling, like go with that.

Anne 49:56

you are drunk and someone suggests a second location

Caroline 49:59

Right. Second location.

Anne 50:01

know

Caroline 50:02

Yeah.

Anne 50:03

maybe don't go especially if the second location is a crypt just drink something else You don't need that Amontillado if you feel like something's wrong trust your gut get out We say this like every episode but it's true

Caroline 50:13

Mm-hmm.

Anne 50:14

And I guess be careful who you insult You never know how they're taking it yeah so you just never know what somebody's Plotting which is one of the deeper horrors of this. think that's especially relevant in a country like the US where of guns around

Caroline 50:27

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 50:28

All right. Do you have a palate cleanser?

Caroline 50:30

Yeah, wait. One other, one other was just that, when I was listening to it, he was mentioning the dimensions of the crypt, and he said the height was six or seven, and I was like, "Oh, 6'7""

Anne 50:42

Oh my God, that's

Caroline 50:43

So

Anne 50:43

out,

Caroline 50:43

I told you I was juvenile. My notes were juvenile.

Anne 50:47

Six seven.

Caroline 50:48

Um, so I think I might have mentioned recently, and I've been doing a terrible job. I had a whole, like, spreadsheet where I was trying to keep track of my palate cleansers, so I didn't repeat. But I think I mentioned that I was listening to a podcast called, Dead H12. I don't think as a palate cleanser, but I think I mentioned it. and I've been listening to it a lot lately. and they were covering a couple movies that just made me think of, being a macabre person so they had The Craft and Heathers were ones that they recently mentioned, and I think those are both ones that you can, you know, enjoy your weird... Also Clue, where you can, you

Anne 51:20

yeah.

Caroline 51:21

All, the black comedies, I just, I just love them. So I guess watch any of those

Anne 51:25

called again?

Caroline 51:26

The podcast is called That Aged Well. they recap the movie, and then they sort of talk about how well it aged,

Anne 51:32

Okay,

Caroline 51:33

A beloved movie. Like today I was listening to The Princess Bride, which, you know, yeah.

Anne 51:37

one of my absolute favorites,

Caroline 51:38

Yeah.

Anne 51:39

Count Rugen wouldn't have gone into a crypt with Inigo Montoya because he knows the insult,

Caroline 51:45

And yeah, he r- he just flat ran away.

Anne 51:48

He would just run away, and that's what, uh, Fortunato probably should've done.

Caroline 51:51

Yeah.

Anne 51:52

on his heel and bolt. All right, well, I already said my palate cleansers, going for a walk and listening to Poe short stories has brought me a bit of joy this week, and I love that it's getting cooler and darker earlier here. Go away, sun. I like it. so last week, based on Devil in the White City, we said that we were doing a two-parter with "Cask of Amontillado" and Silence of the Lambs because of the inclusion of the real Buffalo Bill- In the Chicago World's Fair

Caroline 52:17

I'm

Anne 52:17

the horror show of a basement in H.H. Holmes' Murder Castle. And I think, as I've said, there's a lot of connections to this. Montresor encouraging Fortunato to go deeper into the crypt before fettering him reminds me of Buffalo Bill encouraging Catherine Martin to go deeper into the van. also the walk down the long dungeon-like corridor is kind of reminiscent of Clarice first meeting Lecter. Lots of similarities, so go watch or rewatch Silence of the Lambs. I've really enjoyed my rewatch, and I'm probably gonna watch it again before we actually record.

Caroline 52:46

excited for that. Do you wanna try something? 'Cause now we've been through a year, do you wanna try something different I what's gonna be after Silence of the Lambs, like I'll just tell you now on this recording. Yes, I do.

Anne 52:59

Go for it. I wasn't sure if you had decided.

Caroline 53:01

Mindhunter.

Anne 53:02

Woo! of Ed Kemper, we mentioned

Caroline 53:04

Yeah, exactly. I thought of that too.

Anne 53:06

about Ed Kemper.

Caroline 53:07

I was like, "I can't wait to tell Annie what we're doing next."

Anne 53:10

And Isn't their office in like a basement

Caroline 53:12

Yes, it is.

Anne 53:14

this is like our basement series. You know, we went through that like religious trauma series, we're in like basements.

Caroline 53:21

Okay, yeah. Then I think for another palate cleanser, I wanna recommend the Basement Yard Podcast, I think I've recommended or mentioned before, but anyway, they're two, like- Long Island, green flag guys that are, they're just fun and silly, and I enjoy watching their TikTok clips with my son.

Anne 53:38

Okay. Basement something?

Caroline 53:39

The Basement Yard.

Anne 53:40

Well, what other recommendations do you have to go with this?

Caroline 53:42

so wine and crime, obviously the Buried Alive episode that you mentioned. I also always loved The Simpsons iconic Treehouse of Horror episode, where they do The Raven. that's one of my favorite episodes of all time. I was thinking when he was like, "It is nothing, it is nothing," about his cough, I was just thinking of, "It, it is a scratch, a scratch," from Romeo and Juliet. So wanted to recommend the '90s

Anne 54:05

meant, a mere flesh wound from, Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Caroline 54:09

Oh, yeah. No. A scratch. I just, like, picture, um, from Romeo and Juliet, so wanted to rec- recommend that. Yeah, Mercutio, yeah.

Anne 54:17

it Mercutio? Yeah.

Caroline 54:18

also in terms of darkness and being weird, I mentioned The Craft already. Did I mention Addams Family, that I listened to The Addams Family? No. I don't think when I was listening... So The Addams Family, The Craft, and Beetlejuice are all places where you can enjoy being amongst other dark weirdos, like us. Drop Dead Gorgeous is also my favorite, black comedy.

Anne 54:39

that

Caroline 54:39

It did not age well, I will say.

Anne 54:41

No?

Caroline 54:41

did not age well. So if you've not watched it before, there's a lot of pretty offensive things happening in it, but it is also... I just, I love the non-offensive parts. and then in honor of your mention that clearly I agree with the drink I have on my couch, not knowing anything about wine, the whole, Parks and Rec scene where she's like, "I'm gonna be direct and honest with you. I will have a glass of red wine, and I'll take the cheapest one you have, because I can't tell the difference." That's one of my favorite quotes from all of Parks and Rec.

Anne 55:09

cheapest for me.

Caroline 55:10

Yeah.

Anne 55:11

Always Parks and Rec. All right. So I recommend that you go on a Poe kick like I did over the past week. Just search for the titles in your podcast app. There's lots of options to listen to. I mentioned "His Hideous Heart," which is that collection of YA retellings of Poe's stories. Stir of Echoes," which I think I also re- recommended after Goodfellas because of the actress in that, but it has something very much in common with this. Indiana Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark" because Indy and Marion get abandoned in that well of souls with snakes, and then they, like, push out a brick, and they're in an airfield. Okay. Uh, and "Last Crusade" because they go into that bone-lined crypt in Venice.

Caroline 55:47

Mm-hmm.

Anne 55:48

the horror movie "The Descent" being stuck and unable to escape darkness, one of the scariest horror movies out there, on my list to cover eventually. for stories about being buried alive, there's a scene in "Interview with the Vampire," the movie, where one of them is going to be buried alive in a casket- And you know they're immortal and will be hungry the whole time, and I remember the idea of it just made me nauseous back then, even though it's so, like, fake. There's no vampires. I was just like, "Oh, my God. What a horrific fate." in Immaculate, another horror movie, Sydney Sweeney gets briefly buried alive. I also remember the CSI episode where Nick gets buried alive, like peak 2000s TV. Ryan Reynolds has a buried alive movie called Buried, I think, Guillermo del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosities,

Caroline 56:30

I

Anne 56:30

mentioned that when we did Frankenstein. It's a TV show horror anthology, and it has an episode called Graveyard Rats, It's a bonkers episode, but it has buried alive in it. There's like a king or queen rat or something that's, like, a rodent of unusual size, I guess.

Caroline 56:45

don't think they exist.

Anne 56:46

n- They do.

Caroline 56:47

Oh my God, I want

Anne 57:03

Um, yeah, it's a classic comic, and you can see the pit and the pendulum on the front. The way Montresor pretends to be friendly and concerned, reminded me of the line in Macbeth, "False face must hide what false heart doth know."

Caroline 57:17

Drink, Annie mentioned Macbeth.

Anne 57:19

I, love Macbeth. I'm actually so disappointed because we're not teaching Macbeth this year. We've, like, retired it, and we're teaching Othello, and I just really love Macbeth, and I've gotta my, my heart wrapped around Othello. Okay. Anything else?

Caroline 57:31

Did I tell you that I'm related to Shakespeare?

Anne 57:33

You told me your family is related to the Ferris wheel guy?

Caroline 57:38

No, but I'm blood related to Shakespeare.

Anne 57:41

blood related.

Caroline 57:41

Yeah.

Anne 57:42

That seems dubious.

Caroline 57:43

Ancestry sent me an email about it.

Anne 57:46

you.

Caroline 57:46

Ancestry s- 'cause

Anne 57:47

if ancest-

Caroline 57:48

did a whole whatever tree really far, and, Ancestry sent me an email to let me know.

Anne 57:53

So you're not worried about Gattaca and your DNA being used against you in a caste system?

Caroline 57:59

If they wanna do that, they'll figure out a way to make it happen, so why die of curio- like, with a curiosity and not just know?

Anne 58:05

That's probably true. That's why I've given up on, like, not obvious that I hate Trump 'cause I feel like they

Caroline 58:11

wanna find you, they will find you. They'll figure out an excuse. Live your life.

Anne 58:16

All right. Well, if you have any recommendations for TV shows, podcasts, books, movies that would go along with this or that you'd like us to cover, please contact us. We're available on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads. Follow us there and do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe, review us on iTunes. You can email us at drawntodarknesspod@gmail.com. And most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in a week or two at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.