Chatroom: Bedguard with Josiah Furcinitti

In this bonus “Chatroom” episode of Drawn To Darkness, I (Annie) chat with horror author Josiah Furcinitti to discuss his chilling short story Bedguard, featured in the anthology Lies Beyond, a horror anthology exploring death, fear, and the unknown. In Bedguard, Anna is at first only worried about the growing distance between herself and her husband David. But when he starts suffering from terrifying nightmares, seeing mysterious scratches on his body, and falling violently out of bed, Anna realises too late that something unspeakable is targeting them.  

Listen to me read Bedguard, then stick around for our conversation on horror tropes (something under the bed, creatures that feed on fear, creepy kids, dolls), our horror origin stories, deeper fears, and our some of our favourite books and movies.  

We also discuss the ambiguity of storytelling and what happens to a story when it’s released into the world, and the relationship between anxiety and horror consumption. 

Meanwhile, we gush over the media that scared and shaped us, including Revival, It, The Girl who Loved Tom Gordon, Pet Semetary and Carrie by Stephen King, as well as The X-Files, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, Midsommar, Sinners, Candyman, and Peter Jackson’s King Kong. But it’s not all horror. Josiah also loves Parks and Rec. 

Where you can find Lies Beyond:

You can find Lies Beyond on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and IngramSpark. Follow Josiah on Instagram on @authorjosiahfurcinitti.

Homework for Next Episode

Watch: West of Memphis

Our next episode will feature Gillian Pensavalle from True Crime Obsessed and The Hamilcast to discuss the West Memphis Three, and the ongoing fight for their full exoneration.

Then, back to horror with Sinners, featuring Choctaw vampire hunters and 16 Academy Award nominations!

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. you love a spine tingling short story, we're here for you. we're doing something a little bit different. Caroline couldn't make it, but I'm here with Josiah Fornetti, the author of Lies Beyond a Chilling anthology, where Death Takes Center stage. Hi, Josiah. Welcome to John to Darkness.

Josiah 0:32

Hello. Thank you. I am honored and excited as a fan of the show to be a part of it today.

Anne 0:38

And we're excited to have you as our first author interview. So I'm going to read one of those stories. It's called Bed Guard. then we're just gonna have a chat, with Josiah after. here we go. This is Bed Guard from Lies Beyond by Josiah Fernet.

0:54

Maybe he's cheating the emptiness, which had grown between them each night. Inch by inch is a dark gray storm cloud on a beach day, pregnant with the possibility not of rain, but of something far worse than a ruined vacation. Far worse than a mere sign that a storm is on the horizon. It is proof that trouble is indeed already here. Each night waking with her legs and feet cold due to the deprivation of his constantly warm body against hers, something to which she had grown accustomed in their marriage is a thunder clap echoing in the hollow places of her mind, a crashing boom saying that her husband of 15 years no longer loves her, no longer finds comfort in her arms. Can no longer be satisfied with her. Love for him. She lays in her bed on this January evening having woken up an hour ago with her usual 2:00 AM full bladder. It's like the thing is on a schedule she thinks every time she wakes up and sees the clock, body and heart feeling tense and heavy, bogged down by her anxiety though she's been trying for the past hour, she's unable to get back to sleep. Her mind keeps repeating the same horrible thought over and over and over and over. Maybe he's cheating. As she struggles against the intrusion of this horrid explanation of her husband's distance. The voice of her therapist speaks up in her mind, assuring her that Such thoughts are manifestations of your anxiety telling her that such imaginings, especially based on such scant evidence. Anna could picture her clear as day doing the air quotes with her fingers while they ought not to be merely pushed away. And here during a pushing gesture, therapy with Dr. Matthews was no mere auditory event. They also ought not be given the right to run amok in your mind to such an extent that they're keeping you up and hurting your relationship with your husband. But of course, it wasn't just the distance in the bed. That alone would've been enough to freak her out. It was also the far off, almost haunted look in his eyes. When he was zoning, as he put it, it was the way his answers seemed shorter and more terse. It was the way he wasn't nearly as playful with her as he'd always been. Oh, but those could be symptoms of so many different things. Mind Matthew's countered, stress at work. Trouble entering REM, sleep, a strained family relationship. She went on the possibilities pouring out of her mouth, smooth as a lake on a windless day, hands, working and moving with each option as though needing them like invisible dough into something far more palatable than infidelity. But she thinks answering her therapist, the space between us is the worst. From the first night of our marriage until these past five days, he has always slept, snuggled right up against me, As close as he possibly could be. It was like he couldn't sleep unless he was touching me in some way, and now she turns to him, now looks at him, watches his back, expand and contract with its deep breaths. Each intake announcing itself with a light snore, something she's always found endearing rather than annoying. why his back? He always used to sleep on his back, not on his side with his back facing me. Why all of a sudden She takes her own deep breath. Reaches out and shakes him lightly. David, Hey David. He draws a sharp breath and turns toward her. His sudden waking, producing a snore of the sort that done more regularly throughout the night, probably would tip the scales from sweet to rather annoying, huh? He turns toward her, and she can tell his sleep has been neither deep nor restful. He has bags under his eyes, the size of suitcases, and his face is a sickly pale yellow. What's up baby? Well, uh, I'm sorry to wake you love. She smiles at him laughs nervously. You know what? It's, it's not even that big a deal. We can talk about it in the morning, he turns and flips on the lamp on his side of the bed and props himself up on his elbow. As he turns to face her again, he smiles back and puts his right hand on the left side of her face. Brushes gently at her cheek with his thumb, a gesture that never fails to calm her. And we can talk about it now. Better to face whatever it is while it's still fresh in your mind. Did you have another nightmare? No, I haven't had one tonight. Not yet. Anyway, she had indeed been plagued with nightmares for the past week or so. Another possible cause mind Matthews pointed out to the current flare up of her anxiety. Lack of sleep was after all a famous perpetrator of all kinds of breakdowns of the mind and emotions. These nightmares were incredibly reminiscent of the nightmares that she used to have as a child. Indeed, she'd forgotten that she'd even had such hard nightmares until with a sick familiarity, like a past trauma being triggered by a certain smell or sensation. These ones had arrived both during those times, and now she could never remember exactly what happened upon waking, but she always woke with the sense that she'd narrowly avoided something. Something evil and sentient. Something meticulous and insidious, something not content with merely attacking her, but something that enjoyed the hunt as much as if not more than the kill. And she always felt upon waking that the slimy residue of whatever beast haunted her dreams was still in the room, that it wanted her to know that she'd only just missed it. But that she ought not to worry that it would be back. She takes a deep breath. Babe. She pauses for a moment before letting it out. Are you, are we good? Like we're happy, right? And our marriage is good. And The more she stumbles on, the bigger his smile grows. Honey, he cuts her off gently. You are amazing and we are amazing. I love you more every day that I get to know you and be with you. There's certainly nothing wrong with you and there's nothing wrong with us. The smile faults as little. Where's all this coming from? Did something happen? Well, no, not exactly. I mean, it's just, it sounds so silly. He brushes her cheek again with his thumb and she takes a deep breath and goes on. Well, it's just that for the past week or so, it seems like each night you're moving farther and farther away from me throughout the night and you know, we both sleep like rocks normally. I remember your brother telling me that when you guys were younger and shared a room, he used to check to see if you were still breathing sometimes because of how still you were. She laughs a little and I don't know, it just seems like you've been more, she pauses thinking for a moment. Hands moving. An unconscious imitation of Dr. Matthew. More stressed or distracted or something. I don't know. He nods slowly, thoughtfully taking it in. Honestly, honey, he pauses thinking, Anna's blood pressure spikes. She loves nearly everything about this man, even after six years of marriage. But this is the one thing that drives her up a wall, especially with her anxiety being what it is when she's upset about something and he's trying to talk her through it. He will think about it, start to say something, and then pause to think some more. As though he were being asked to give a speech on the spot that will change the course of history, rather than merely trying to comfort his anxious wife. She knows he's just a thoughtful man and is trying to be careful with his words, but it drives her nuts all the same. Yes, she says goading him on a hint of annoyance creeping into her voice. Most times she lets him do his thing in his time. But her patience in the midst of anxiety at a normal hour, let alone at 3:00 AM is about as plentiful as breathable air in a middle school gymnasium. Well, honestly, I haven't been sleeping well the past week. I've been super exhausted and I've actually been having some pretty awful dreams as well. His smile is totally gone now, replaced by a look she hasn't seen before. Fear bordering on terror. It's pretty weird. I usually don't remember my dreams if I even have them at all, but these ones are super vivid and they're pretty much all the same too. We're laying in bed together, and you're asleep and I'm awake. And at first it's like the atmosphere of the room changes somehow. Yeah, everything seems darker and there's this weird smell in the room, like rotting meat or something. Then out of nowhere, my heart starts racing and I get this feeling of absolute terror and fear. It almost feels like I've developed some kind of supernatural sixth sense, and I can tell something's coming for me his breathing picks up and she can see beets of sweat forming on his upper lip and brow. And then I hear a slithering, slimy noise from under the bed, like the world's biggest snake escape from the zoo and came to our house, and I went to scream and jump outta bed and tell you that we have to get out of here, but I'm paralyzed, I'm frozen. I can't move or speak. His words are running together. Each phrase running out of his mouth. On rapid gusts of breath, and then the slithering starts to happen on the bed frame and I can feel the mattress moving as though something's trying to climb on it. And then he's shaking now, and Anna sits up all the way the sheets pooling around her waist and she grabs him and pulls him into an embrace. She can feel each hot breath against her breasts and can feel the sweat coming off of him and dripping between them. It's okay, sweetie. It's just a dream. I know it's scary, but it's, it's only a nightmare. Trust me, if anyone knows nightmares, it's me. She rubs his shoulder and he lets out a nervous little laugh. She pulls back for a moment and puts the back of her hand against his forehead. Yeah, you know what you do feel a little warm. Maybe you're coming down with something. A fever can cause some pretty strange nightmares. You know, I remember once my sister had a temp of 1 0 3 and she had a waking nightmare that there were spiders crawling all over the ceiling. Poor kid, His breathing is slowing down now, and he reaches up to wipe the sweat off his brow as he does. She sees light scratches all up and down the inside of his arms and on his ribs. Some are fresh, some are beginning to heal already. Her heart skips a beat. She thinks about asking him even. Opens her mouth and feels the words starting to form, but just before they're out, she stops them. He's just beginning to calm down and she doesn't want to upset him again. Do you think he could go back to sleep, he thinks for a moment? Yeah, I think so. He looks up at her, His eyes pleading. Do you think you could hold me for a little while while I fall asleep? She smiles at him and pulls him back into her arms. Of course she holds him, and after a while his breathing finally slows, and before she knows it, she's asleep too. I, she doesn't know whether it is the thump or the scream that wakes her. But before she can even begin to register what she's hearing, she rolls to the now empty side of her bed that her husband usually occupies. And looks over the side. He's there on the floor on his back chest heaving with huge hitching sobs. His breathing is way too fast and he's shaking. She worries that he will pass out. If he doesn't calm down, well then why don't you get the hell outta bed and try to stop that from happening? Idiot. Her own internal voice screams at her. So she rolls the rest of the way outta bed and kneels down beside him, rubbing his arms and chest whispering and it's okay, and other little comforts that bypass her rational mind entirely and flow out naturally as she tries to calm him. After a minute or two, he calms to the point that she no longer fears him, hyperventilating himself, unconscious. and she reaches up and grabs one of the many open water bottles from his nightstand. She unscrews the cap. And after helping him to sit up against the nightstand, raises the bottle to his lips, telling him drink. He takes two long gulps and then pulls back. He moans, are you hurt? Did you hit your head? He moans again and she forces him to look her in the eyes. Babe, did you hit your head? No, he, I, I fell on my butt. Do you think you can get up? He straightens against the nightstand and pushes himself off the floor. Anna helps him steady himself and then climb back into bed. His eyes are half flitted and his speech is muddled with sleep. You're okay, baby. You're okay. Just go back to sleep. We'll figure this out in the morning. He mumbles something else and turns over. She rubs his back for a little while until his breathing deepens once again, and then she turns over and attempts to lure sleep back to her own mind. But every time she closes her eyes, she sees him writhing on the floor. She hears him weeping, hears him, telling her that he could feel it and smell it. And now she could swear that she too could feel something, could smell something in the room with them. When after about half an hour of restless tossing and turning, she finally accepts that sleep, like a cat cannot be controlled but can only be lured if it wants to be lured. She sighs and grabs her phone from under her pillow. She scrolls aimlessly through the usual social media platforms, seeing all the colors and words and lies, but not really taking any of it in, halfway through her Facebook news scroll, an idea comes to her. She opens Amazon, she searches bed guard. As she scrolls through the results, her first thought is a flood of memories. Her mom and dad were very strict on Anna sleeping in her own bed once she turned two, not only because they were ready for their privacy once again, but also because as a young child, she tossed and turned like a man the night before. His execution as her father had often put it, in fact, on more than one occasion, they had come into her room in the morning to find her sprawled on the floor next to her mattress having rolled off at some point in the night. But when her dad died only two years later, she spent nearly every night in her mother's bed and woke up nearly every morning on the floor leading her mother to buy a bed guard of the very same sort of those which she was seeing. The padded railing with a cloth mesh netting across, brought back memories long since forgotten. Looking at it. as She pretended to sleep while her mother wept softly into the pillow, waking up with her face in the netting and seeing the red tattoo, it left on her cheek as she brushed her teeth. Her second thought was, damn, these are expensive. The first page had 15 different options with prices ranging from$25 to 99, 1 claiming that twin, queen, king, no matter the size we've got you covered. Another sharing her that even a baby elephant couldn't fall off the bed with this guard in place. She snorts at this, checks the price. Then snorts again,$99 for that. She could just buy a nice air mattress to put next to the bed. At least it would continue to have use. Once this, whatever this was passed, she finds a middle of the road, one for$50, sees it has same day shipping, and adds it to her cart. She checks out, then turns to her husband. He's still sleeping. His breathing's still deep and regular. She checks the time 5:19 AM If she can fall asleep before six or so, she can get at least two more hours of sleep, which might be enough to stave off extreme grumpiness so she turns over and having been able to do something as meager a thing as it was, falls back asleep, babe, I really don't think this is necessary. I mean, last night was the first time I've ever fallen off a bed, maybe ever. He speaks to her from across the room as he strips off the road. He wears after showers and before bed and folds it carefully putting it over the back of his desk chair. she thought that perhaps he would protest, and this feeling was confirmed the moment she saw his face as he walked into the room and saw the bed guard already installed on his side of the bed. Though he's a man far sweeter and less macho than most men she's met, he's still a man and thus still has his pride. But she was ready for this and hopefully it will be the last, but until we're sure that these nightmares have worked themselves out of your system. Perhaps it would be better for your body and for both of our sleep, just to have this as a safety net. No pun intended. She walks over to him and hugs him from behind rubbing his chest. If anything, do it for me. It'll make me feel a whole lot better to know I won't wake up to find you in a pool of blood on the floor because you hit your head on the corner of the night table. After rolling out of bed, he laughs and spins in her arms so that they are face to face. I guess it's better than those corner guards you put on everything when you babysit for my neighbor's kid, she makes her eyes go comically wide and her voice jumps up into Mickey Mouse range, as they always do when they're joke, lying. No. Yeah, definitely don't buy any of those. They both laugh and kiss each other lightly at first. Then the kiss deepens and he lifts her and she wraps her legs around him and he carries her to the bed. She can hear him cursing under his breath as she climbs out of sleep. The next morning she blinks and turns around. Her eyes are still blurry with sleep, but she can see that his side of the bed is empty. He's next to the bed, kneeling down and looking at the bed guard. She blinks again and her eyes clear and she draws in a sharp breath, then utters her own curse. What the hell happened? She asks, once she's caught her breath, I have no idea. He doesn't look up at her as he answers. He just continues to study the bed guard. A fist sized hole has been ripped in the center of it. And there are tiny brownish red droplets hanging off the ragged ends of the mesh around the hole. She can see the graying speckles of three day growth on his face through the center of the hole. And she realized that she's never seen more than the beginnings of a five o'clock shadow on him before today. I must have punched it or, or ripped through it somehow. I think I had another nightmare last night. I, I don't remember it, but I feel exhausted. Like I didn't sleep at all last night, and. He stops himself, she prods him, and, and I'm scared Anna, he finally looks her in the eye. I have no idea what's going on here, but I know something's going on. He stands and begins to pace next to the bed. Maybe if I sleep on the couch tonight or if I get a hotel room or something, I don't know. She gets outta bed and walks around to him, baby. It's as though he doesn't hear her. He continues to pace as he speaks. I mean, maybe just a change of scenery. I don't know. Maybe I can take some NyQuil or something. And David, she speaks with force, not quite yelling, but close. He finally stops and faces her. I know you're scared, honey. She walks to him and hugs him. He cringes a little at first. It breaks her heart into a million pieces, but she goes on anyway. And I don't know what's going on either. Maybe you saw something last week that brought up some childhood trauma. No, I've been thinking about it and Or she cuts him off. Maybe it was something you ate. She lifts a finger before he can interrupt her again. Or maybe something else. Totally. That we don't understand. We both struggle with anxiety and depression, and we both know full well that these kind of things are sometimes cyclical and seasonal. Maybe this is just a new season and a new thing to deal with. She lifts her hand up to his face and rubs her thumb against his cheek imitating the way he comforts her, whatever it may be. I'm here with you and for you, and we will figure this out and everything will be okay. Cool. She looks deep into his eyes trying to speak through his anxiety to his heart. Everything will be okay. She repeats holding his face in both hands. He takes a deep breath and smiles. The smile doesn't reach his eyes. You're right. Of course, everything will be okay. Listen, I'm gonna shower and head off to work, okay? Johnson will kill me if I'm late again. She looks at him for a moment debating whether to argue the point with him. She sees in his eyes that further arguments or pleadings will do nothing and forces a smile. Okay, babe, wash your butt. Good. You stink. He crinkles his nose at her and gives her a gentle push away, but she can tell his heart is not in it. He walks off to the bathroom and she looks down at the torn bed guard, wondering how in the world he could have done this, especially without waking her. Just let me do it. Okay. He raises his voice at her for only the second time in their marriage. He was quiet when he got home that day. Quiet during dinner, quiet while washing the dishes after quiet in the shower. She tried to start conversations several times, but after the third failed attempt, while they washed dishes together, she joined him in his silence. The silence ended when after watching some stupid show together that she, sure neither of them were really paying much attention to. David gathered his blanket and pillow into his arms and climbed out of bed. Babe, where are you going? I'm sleeping on the couch Tonight he put up a hand before she could even begin to respond. Babe. It's not up for debate. Look at this. He gestures with his full hands at the bed guard. What if I do that to you in the middle of the night instead of to that thing? How's that gonna feel? David, you're not gonna do that to me. You've never been remotely violent to me, sleeping or awake. And, but we really don't know what could happen, do we, as you yourself pointed out, this is unprecedented. We will figure this out together. And if after a couple of nights on the couch I'm not punching or ripping holes in anything, I'll come back to the bed. But for now, babe, come on. This is just let me do it. Okay? They're both silent for a moment, both breathing heavily in the heat of the argument. He crumbles. First he comes around to her side of the bed and kneels down in front of her. Listen babe, I would never forgive myself if I accidentally hurt you because of some stupid nightmares. Okay? It's just a couple nights and I'm just down the hall. It's for the best, Anna. You see that, right? She's still doesn't agree, would still rather be able to keep an eye on him, but once again, that male sense of pride and stubbornness is more than she has the energy to deal with. So. She takes a deep breath and responds. Yes, David. I see just a couple nights though. Yes, he says smiling just a couple nights. He kisses her on the forehead, then each cheek, then on the lips and lingers there for a moment. I love you, Anna. I love you too. He kisses her once more and then stands again and walks around the bed and after giving her one more look down the hall to the living room. Closing the door gently behind him as he goes, the creaking of the bedroom door wakes her. David. No response For a moment. There's no sound at all. Then the door opens all the way and he shuffles in. Hey, baby. Can't sleep down there. That couch is absolutely awful On the back, still no response. He comes to his side of the bed, dragging his feet as he goes, he stands before it for a moment, then grabs the bed garden and tries to rip it off. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? Anna says, shifting over and grabbing his forearms where the muscles ripple like a pond into which a large stone has just been dropped. He's still not saying anything, babe. Her voice has a little more alarm in it now, but he still acts as if he doesn't hear her. She gets outta bed and pulls his arms to his side and leads into the bottom of the bed so that he can climb in around the bed guard. He doesn't put up a fight, and for that, Anna is grateful. Come on, should have listened to me in the first place. She finally gets him into bed and tucks him in. Goodnight, baby. Still nothing. He has never sleepwalk like this before, but he's also never had nightmares like this before. Time to pick up the therapy conversation again. Anna thinks as she drifts off. this time. She's sure that it is neither the thump nor the scream that wakes her. It is the rustling of the bedsheets. First, there's a slimy noise, like a den of snakes, slithering onto her husband's side of the bed, and then there's the louder rustling of him being dragged off of it with them in their descent. She opens her eyes and the first thing she sees is her husband being dragged through the bed guard, which has been mangled. Even further, the railing ripped in two, one of its padded arms reaching straight up into the sky and the other towards the floor. His eyes fluter open, and looked directly into hers. just as he's about to fall, and he opens his mouth to scream. But as he does, a slimy red, tentacle tipped and long white claws slides up his chest and into his mouth instead of a scream, he emits a strangled choking sound, and then he's gone and she hears a thump as he hits the floor. Then the sound of him being dragged under the bed. She breaks her paralysis and goes to the edge of his side and looks over. Her husband is already gone, but she sees the trailing end of one of those wretched tentacles. It scratches at the floor as it slides under the bed and just before it disappears, it stops. And she stares in horror as it turns over, nail side down, revealing hundreds of tiny eyes looking at her. They blink at her and then continue their scratching. Slide under the bed she screams as the thing disappears and she screams as the darkness encroaches, and she screams until she passes out. She wakes sometime later. Her heart already racing her breath already hot and fast in her throat. She looks at the clock on the nightstand and sees that it is 2:03 AM just a nightmare. She tells herself just another nightmare. She tells this to herself over and over As she rubs the scratches on her arms, scratches that she's sure were not there yesterday. and as she settles back into her side of the bed where she awoke, even though she thinks, even though I know I fell asleep on his side of the bed, but it's okay. I didn't really because it was only a nightmare. Only a nightmare. Only a nightmare. And where is my husband, by the way? Why isn't he in bed where he belongs? The old voice breaks back in with the same old message. Maybe he's cheating. only this time. The message brings, not anxiety, but a sense of comfort, a sense of rationality, because a monster under the bed is a thing for scary books and children's nightmares, not real life. Real life monsters are infidelity and divorce, and those are things that can be dealt with. Maybe he's cheating and that's why he's not here. He's not dead, he's not. She tells herself this over and over and over, even as she starts to fall asleep, even as she hears a slimy rustling movement under her side of the bed.

Anne 23:04

So that was bed guard. we've been corresponding a few months now. How did you find us? By the way, did I spam you?

Josiah 23:10

what it was is I saw, that you had done an episode on Carrie. And anytime I see anything Stephen King on any podcast, I'm like, all right, I, I should probably check that out. so I listened to that and then I saw that you had done. Heaven's gate and, hereditary. And so it was just from there, it was just a, oh, wow, I love it. This is incredible. So from there it was just kind of like a, a snowball.

Anne 23:28

So we are both constant readers

Josiah 23:30

Yes.

Anne 23:30

of the same favorite media in common.

Josiah 23:33

Yes.

Anne 23:33

Okay, well, you know, you sent me Lies beyond, and it took me a long time to get to it because it was in a PDF format and I don't like reading PDFs, but once I actually sat down and started, I really enjoyed it. And, I can feel the king influence kind of running throughout, which I really enjoyed. And lot of the stories, have great twists toward the end., So wanted to. Read one of my favorites, which was what you just heard. Bed guard. I chose that one because, you know, I liked it, but also it's a female voice, I felt it was better suited to me. And she's an insomniac waking up at what she wakes up at two. Is that right? And

Josiah 24:11

around two. Yeah.

Anne 24:12

yeah, I'm a 3:00 AM

Josiah 24:14

Okay. Yeah,

Anne 24:15

did you get the inspiration for that? Is that you or your wife?

Josiah 24:18

that, that's me. A hundred percent me. it was originally gonna be 2 2 17. Um, little Stephen King reference there, of course, but I was like, by the time I finished this whole collection, it's gonna be Stephen King. Stephen King. Stephen King. I better not do that. So

Anne 24:31

Thought it might be a little too heavy handed

Josiah 24:33

a little bit, a bit.

Anne 24:35

somewhere else, right.

Josiah 24:35

I do. Yeah, I think so. Probably.

Anne 24:39

you about that at the time. do you think there's something about people who love horror who have to wake up in the middle of the night? Or, or is the veil thin? Is that when the sleep paralysis demons come?

Josiah 24:49

Absolutely, that's a good way to look at it. There's something about it. and most of the time, I wake up and I'm not scared, but then every once in a while you wake up and whether it be a nightmare that you can't remember or just. Random anxiety that wakes up in the night. It's like, wow, I'm really scared. For some reason, even though there's nothing going on, I can't quite put my finger on it. Or is, that's the question. Right. Maybe there is something under the bed.

Anne 25:10

there is. Yeah. Luckily, I have one of those beds that has about, a two inch gap. Beneath it.

Josiah 25:16

Okay. Good for you.

Anne 25:17

You'd have to be a very and shape shifting thing to fit under there. It's, it's kind of like big enough for socks to get lost, but not big enough to actually store anything. But

Josiah 25:26

See those are the scariest monsters though. That can change, that can fit under there. But still big enough to get you. Those are the ones you really gotta work, watch out for, in my opinion.

Anne 25:34

can slither

Josiah 25:35

Yeah.

Anne 25:35

isn't there an X-Files about that? Like a guy who can become totally. Thin and like slide through windows. It's an early X-Files. It's very scary. I'll have to

Josiah 25:43

Okay. I'll have to, I, I keep hearing about that show. I have not seen it. To my shame. Yep. To my shame.

Anne 25:48

you gotta watch X-Files. You'd love it. Yeah. I think it holds up certainly the early seasons as well. I'm not, I don't, I'm not big on aliens.

Josiah 25:54

No. Me neither. I think that's why, but horror, people keep telling me, you've gotta watch this show. It's pretty scary. It's got some good scary elements, so.

Anne 26:02

definitely horror adjacent.

Josiah 26:03

Okay.

Anne 26:04

and just about the bed thing, I still find myself, I'll do the, bathroom scamper and leap

Josiah 26:09

Yep.

Anne 26:09

into bed

Josiah 26:10

Yep.

Anne 26:11

to this day. And I'm way too old for that.

Josiah 26:13

Okay.

Anne 26:13

I recently read, Josh Mailman's incidents around the house. Have

Josiah 26:16

Oh, yes, mama. Yep. Oh yeah.

Anne 26:19

Yeah, that

Josiah 26:20

Oh, that was good. That was,

Anne 26:22

um, a little, a second guess. Going to the toilet in the middle of the night for sure.

Josiah 26:26

those are the best ones.

Anne 26:27

Yeah, the ones that stick with you and linker. I mean, I guess I just love the trope of something under the bed, something in the closet. It's the oldest horror that kids feel, and as we're discussing now, it can stick with you to this day. Right. Even

Josiah 26:40

Oh, absolutely.

Anne 26:41

rational. Yeah.

Josiah 26:42

Right. I get in these periods of getting hooked on certain, like trends on YouTube because I, I'm a locksmith by trade. I go around and drive around and make car keys and house keys and stuff like that. so I'm listening to podcast audio books and stuff like that. And for a while I was just obsessed with listening to, abandoned, uh, what is it called? Ibex Urban Exploration. Have you heard of this? Yeah.

Anne 26:59

yes.

Josiah 27:00

Oh, it's so cool. And I was just obsessed with Ibex videos of people going into these places and like chilling encounters in these places. And it was like, I knew. I had hit something because I got home one night, it was dark outside. I lived like near the woods. and I was like freaked out to get outta my car and I was like, okay, this is, I'm hitting something here. I was like, I gotta write a novel about iex. I have to like do something with this. You know, when you find that one thing, like, okay, this is sitting with me for some reason, you know?

Anne 27:25

Well, it's one of the things I love about writing is what is the spark?

Josiah 27:29

Right.

Anne 27:29

is that moment that makes you think, ah, I'm gonna write about this. And sometimes it's not a whole story, sometimes it's just an image in your head and then it develops from there. And I love those origin stories of how people come up with their ideas.

Josiah 27:42

Oh, me too. Yeah.

Anne 27:43

The other reason I liked it is, bed guard is very lovecraftian with the tentacles and the eyes and mouth horror. You know, is there anything worse than a tentacle slithering into an open mouth? That's pretty nasty. I.

Josiah 27:55

that is one of those images that just, oh, it just works every time. No matter how often it's done. It works. It's gross. Oh.

Anne 28:02

it's so gross. Caroline has a real problem with mouth horror, so at some point we're gonna do drag me to hell

Josiah 28:08

Oh

Anne 28:08

there's so much mouth horror in that

Josiah 28:10

yeah.

Anne 28:10

I just gotta build her up to it.

Josiah 28:11

Yeah. Take, take your time. Yeah.

Anne 28:13

another part I really liked, was the appearance of the scratches. anytime one of my kids has like a mysterious scratch, my first thought is like. Demons, right? where did that scratch come from? so yeah, I like that. David has scratches that are mysterious and then right towards the end, so does Anna.

Josiah 28:28

that, that was a fun element. again, the way this story came to me, it was like I was laying in bed. my wife, and I'm sharing this with her permission, I should say. my wife sometimes gets these horrible, horrible nightmares. and they're like half waking, half sleeping, where, she'll be sometimes talking, sometimes running and walking around. but she'll be asleep. She'll have no recollection of it the next day. And so one night she had woken and she fell out of the bed just like David in the story, you know, he falls outta the bed, falls on his butt, and he's kind of incoherent. He's kind of awake, not really awake. that happened. It was like pretty much as the way I described it in the, in the story. and I'm laying there like, I can't go back to sleep.'cause I'm like, oh my gosh, I hope she's all right. You know what, if this happens again, I'm freaking out. And it brought back the memory of when I would sleep at my grandmother's house, she would put up a bed guard, you know, the wire mesh net. I don't know if you, if you ever did one of those with your kids when they were,

Anne 29:14

kids had one too. I,

Josiah 29:15

you? Yep.

Anne 29:15

uh, kids who fell outta beds.

Josiah 29:17

Yep.

Anne 29:18

we had the same thing. So very, familiar

Josiah 29:20

Yeah,

Anne 29:20

to me.

Josiah 29:21

I figured with, I feel like for most people have at least seen one. And again, every single time I would sleep at my grandmother's house, she'd put that up. And so I was thinking about that. And then I had an image of it just torn through a hole, punched right in the center and just this dirty ragged hole. Something had ripped it apart and not gone out as though someone was falling out. But it had been reached in, the bars were broken inward. So I had that image as I was laying there and I was like, Ooh. Okay. That's something.

Anne 29:45

the red droplets, is that meant to be David's blood or something left over from the creature. I was wondering about that.

Josiah 29:54

In my mind that was David's blood, um, as he was being scratched up and stuff like that, but. I mean, this is not a clean, uh, monster. It leaves behind residue and slime and dirt and stuff on the, on the rails. So I could definitely see it being that as well. In my mind it was blood, but it could be that as well. Okay. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Actually. Okay. I've been talking with a couple of friends who are writers as well, and we were talking about how much of the story still belongs to you once it's out in the wild. because I mean, there are certain things when you write a that it's like, okay, Anna and David, these are the main characters and, but there is so much that's left up the interpretation Okay. I always find it interesting. how much do you feel as an author, as a creator, as an artist, whatever it may be, how much do you feel the need to hold onto certain things, and how much are you willing to let go of as you release it into the world?

Anne 30:38

Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on if you're being maybe deliberately vague. Or you want people to interpret it in different possible ways, or if you're being misunderstood, if you truly are like, no, I meant it this way, I might be frustrated. I mean, I've always kind of said to myself okay, if say like Stephen King, I wrote a book that was successful enough that people wanted to make a movie out of it, I've always told myself I would let it go. Right? And just be like, as long as it's in good hands. I would be okay with whatever happens. I think probably the reality of that is much more difficult. Like I listened to an interview a while back with, what's his name? The writer of World War Z I'm

Josiah 31:15

max.

Anne 31:15

Max Brooks. Max Brooks,

Josiah 31:18

Hmm,

Anne 31:18

have you, have you read that?

Josiah 31:19

I've not read it. Nope.

Anne 31:20

He, oh, it's so good we're gonna cover it. It's so much better than the single hero Brad Pitt interpretation that they made

Josiah 31:28

Okay.

Anne 31:29

movie. And he really struggled with how they. much butchered it, at least it got out there and more people read it

Josiah 31:36

Right.

Anne 31:36

of the movie, even if the movie was bad.

Josiah 31:39

Right.

Anne 31:39

there's been a lot of and inadequate Stephen King. Adaptations And I've kind of branched off into movies being made than just what people think and feel about your characters and the

Josiah 31:51

No, but that's totally part of it, right? Is that the way that those directors feel about it? The, you know, the reason they wanna make it into a movie, a mass marketable thing like you said, it's those emotions. It's the things people feel and see and, and, and think in their head when they read the story. that's,

Anne 32:04

true to the spirit, I feel

Josiah 32:06

yeah.

Anne 32:06

okay with it. like the Frankenstein adaptation, Guillerma Del Toro's, it's true to the spirit

Josiah 32:12

Right.

Anne 32:13

the book, even if it's not a hundred percent accurate on every point.

Josiah 32:16

hmm. Well said.

Anne 32:17

What do you think are the deeper horrors Bed Guard?

Josiah 32:20

Generally anxiety and then anxiety about specific things like a relationship, right? Like she's worried that something is wrong in their relationship it's almost kind of a comfort to her by the end of the story. is this, maybe he's cheating on me because she's noticing this distance, right? They were always so close and slowly over the past couple weeks, he's been more distant, both physically and emotionally. He's not there as much. Okay. at the beginning of the story, the deeper fear is. This is my life partner. This is the person I love most in the world. What if that is no longer true on their end? What if he doesn't love me? What if he's fallen for someone else? Okay. And then by the end of the story, when the horror is reversed, she comes back to that same theme of maybe he's cheating. He must be cheating because he's no longer in bed with her and she's trying to deny what her own eyes are telling her. so in a way that fear was almost more palatable than the fear of a monster under a bed.

Anne 33:06

The way doubt can slither into a relationship,

Josiah 33:10

okay. Yeah, there we go. See, this is, that's why you gotta talk about stories.'cause like I'm not that deep. that's good. I, I didn't mean that, but sure. Let's take it.

Anne 33:20

Own it. Say you meant it. Say that's exactly what you meant.

Josiah 33:23

Yeah, that's good. But yeah, that's exactly it.

Anne 33:26

the idea, and you know, we've talked about this say with. The book Pen Pal, that that you could be targeted by something evil and that someday it can come back. I have a question. the monster in your mind always been with her? Because there's this reference to her mom crying and her dad died and she had these nightmares. As a kid. Are we meant to infer that this thing under the bed has been with her for a long time, perhaps is responsible for the death of her father? That was one of my outstanding questions.

Josiah 33:52

Wow, that's interesting. In my mind, the monster that had always been with her had been this anxiety, mind. Yeah. Yeah. In my mind, that was kind of the monster that had always been with her since the death of her father. it was kind of in the back of my mind like, okay, is this a return of the monster? But then I don't think this monster is one of those ones that, leaves a calling card. I think once he's locked his sites in, he just locks in and, and. does what he's gonna do. at least that's the way I had taken it.

Anne 34:20

stories, you've got this figure

Josiah 34:23

Yes,

Anne 34:24

return,

Josiah 34:25

yes. that's a whole different freaky no, but that is a theme because of her specifically. I can't quite say this monster feels to me more like one of those monsters that isn't as thinking methodical, isn't like, enjoys the fear and the hunt as much as the actual kill. This is to me, is one of those monsters that just enjoys the kill and that is just for whatever reason, whether it be hunger,

Anne 34:46

Because it does wait, right? it

Josiah 34:48

Right. It does. Yeah.

Anne 34:49

a few weeks. Yeah.

Josiah 34:50

Right. It isn't just snatch in my mind that was more like, it takes time for it to make its way into this world. it starts with just slimy noises and then it starts coming into the bed guard than it pulls'em off the bed. So it's like kind of more of a process of, it's building up its strength to be able to pull'em up.

Anne 35:03

maybe it's feeding on the fear, which

Josiah 35:05

Mm.

Anne 35:06

potentially.

Josiah 35:07

Yeah,

Anne 35:07

that's a trope I like.

Josiah 35:08

it's classic,

Anne 35:09

what is

Josiah 35:09

know?

Anne 35:10

horror trope? I mean, we've talked about the trope of something under the bed or in the

Josiah 35:13

Yep.

Anne 35:14

the trope of a creature that feeds on fear, that enjoys it. Do you have any favorite horror tropes?

Josiah 35:20

Definitely. I think dolls are almost always extremely effective for me. Dolls pretty much always freak me out. Kids. Creepy kid stuff cause I, I love kids. I have, bunch of nieces and nephews and they are just such a joy to me. I love'em so much. But creepy kid stuff in movies. Oh my gosh. Or even in books. I read, Craig Deloy Suffer the Children. Have you read that?

Anne 35:40

I've heard of it, but I haven't read it.

Josiah 35:41

Oh, it's a fantastic book. Fantastic book. And this is right at the beginning, not spoiling anything, but there's this one scene where a kid, comes up and he's like, his mom is sleeping. Something's wrong with him. And he comes up and she wakes up like with him standing over her muttering something. and at one point, like the way she describes is like his mouth is going like a fish. And then she realizes that he's saying, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood. Like over, over like.

Anne 36:02

Okay. Very

Josiah 36:04

It's, Yeah, exactly. It's so freaky. Oh my goodness. So that that is, yeah.

Anne 36:08

a kid standing over my bed in the

Josiah 36:10

Oh,

Anne 36:11

like surpri, they're, they're horrifying.

Josiah 36:13

all right. As a parent who loves that child, it's freaky, right? It's still scary.

Anne 36:16

freaky.

Josiah 36:17

Yeah.

Anne 36:17

wake up that way. I, I have this delightful niece, who I know will be watching horror movies with me someday, but she from a very young age would walk into a room, at the corner, point and go, ghosties.

Josiah 36:28

Come on, Uhuh.

Anne 36:29

And she was too little to like, to

Josiah 36:31

be messing.

Anne 36:32

she hadn't watched horror movies, you know, like she was like three, two or three years old. but she's, she's really fun.'cause she'll Yes. And you, like, I remember one time I was with her and we saw she was little, like four or five and we saw this dark staircase and I pointed down and I was like. think there's a monster down there. And she was like, yes. I was like, I suggested it at that point. But then we were just going back and forth about what the monster was gonna do and how big it was and what it

Josiah 36:52

Right.

Anne 36:53

So,

Josiah 36:53

Oh, that's awesome.

Anne 36:54

that can, yes. And a horror.

Josiah 36:56

Oh, for sure. That's my nephew. Um, one of my nephews. He,. He's three, but he's a self acclaimed horror fan. and it's the same thing like last year when he was younger, he would tell his mom about the spaghetti monster that had spaghetti arms and like, oh my God, what are you talking about, dude? Like, that's great. And then the other day he was over there and he was like, I love horror movies and I was like, oh, really? What kind of horror movies? He's like, shark ones.

Anne 37:19

Has he seen them?

Josiah 37:20

No,

Anne 37:21

Okay.

Josiah 37:22

Uhuh.

Anne 37:22

my kids Jaws this past summer and my daughter says it's her favorite movie,

Josiah 37:26

Oh, there you go.

Anne 37:27

now. She thinks about it every time, you know?

Josiah 37:29

Yeah.

Anne 37:30

Well, I mean, sharks are one of the things that scare me the most in real life. What

Josiah 37:35

Really?

Anne 37:35

you the most in real life? Yeah. Well, I mean, because I saw Jaws like before I can, I can't even remember when I saw Jaws. It was that early. So it's just always been in my mind and I think about it.

Josiah 37:44

Wow, okay.

Anne 37:46

right?

Josiah 37:46

It's not totally irrational.

Anne 37:48

yeah. Yeah.

Josiah 37:49

Yeah. I shouldn't feed into it. It's not, not totally irrational. I think for me, on a real simple level, I would say heights, it's something about being way high up. It's not even like falling. It's the weirdest thing. People say, no, you're not scared of heights, you're scared of falling. I'm like, no, I'm not. Okay. for example, when my wife and I went on our honeymoon and we were staying in this hotel. It was like we were way high up. You look over the balcony and it's just, you see the cement blow and everything. just, I get sick looking and this weird thing happens where in my head I keep saying like, just jump. Just jump. Just jump. You're gonna fall anyway. Just jump. So it's like you get that. Yeah. So it's like that's what happens when I get real up high is like I get this urge to jump. So I don't think it's the fear of falling, it's just being up there, I don't know. Freaks me out.

Anne 38:29

of a problem with that kind of height, say like a fourth floor balcony

Josiah 38:32

Yeah,

Anne 38:33

the Empire State Building

Josiah 38:34

sure.

Anne 38:35

one of my biggest movie Icks is seeing bones break.

Josiah 38:39

Oh yeah.

Anne 38:40

I remember the first time I saw deliverance and there's a scene where, the guy's leg is broken and you can see the bone jutting out and that kills me. and I know that if you fell from a fourth floor, may not die, but you are going to destroy your body.

Josiah 38:53

Yeah.

Anne 38:54

is, I think, what gets me about heights. So I

Josiah 38:56

Oh my goodness. Yeah. I feel like it's a, it's a common one, but I feel like it's more nuanced with everyone, it's not just the same for everyone. Like, oh, I just can't be over a balcony. Like everyone does have kind of their own iteration of it. And breaking bones, by the way. Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Have you seen midsummer? I feel like we've talked about midsummer.

Anne 39:12

yeah. I've seen

Josiah 39:13

Okay. Yeah, You're gonna cover that at some point.

Anne 39:15

on the list.

Josiah 39:16

Oh good. Okay. always makes me think.

Anne 39:18

midsummer, what's one piece of horror media book movie think everyone should read or watch?

Josiah 39:25

if I could answer, read and watch, I would say Midsummer for watch Midsummer is just such a feat of a horror movie, the one that takes place in total light, but is still so effectively scary, the way that it deals with these themes and motifs. Obviously there are some things to be said, and I'm excited to hear, uh, you talk about it. I know some people have not appreciated the way they dealt with mental illness. Some people felt like they handled it well. said on all that.

Anne 39:47

touch on that in

Josiah 39:48

Yes, yes, you do. Yes, that's right. but yeah, I think it, it is such an effective movie in so many ways. between that and sinners, sinners just kind of stands on its own. In so many different ways. I think obviously it hasn't had enough time, but I think it will stand the test of time and it will stand as its own unique contribution and voice to horror, It's gonna last no question about that, and I think it's gonna have its own lore and, and different,

Anne 40:12

next horror movie.

Josiah 40:13

is it?

Anne 40:14

that next week.

Josiah 40:15

Oh, nice. Okay. Well, I'll be looking forward to that. Um, pet Cemetery is one of those books that I think is horror. if you like, look at the elements of it, it's a classic tragedy. first of all, besides just being a brilliant story, in my opinion, in so many different ways, you know, it's a reiteration of Monkey's Paw, right? it's a tragedy. It's like a classic Greek tragedy in so many different ways.

Anne 40:34

I'm getting chills.

Josiah 40:34

Oh, it's, oh, it's so, it's just so, like I could talk about pet cemetery all day long. in so many different ways. The way that it deals with the themes of fate and choice. you leave it not knowing is this fate, was Lewis gonna do this all along, or could he have any point, have stopped and even he meditates on this as he's in the process of bringing his unburied son to rebury him. At one point he stops and thinks, he has this moment of like, could I turn around at this point? Am I even of my own volition doing this? And it's not answered. I, I don't think, anyway. such a

Anne 41:04

good.

Josiah 41:05

Oh, it's so brilliant in so many different ways, so,

Anne 41:07

that movie that book

Josiah 41:09

yeah.

Anne 41:10

the different storylines. Building up to that culmination of him actually doing it and like, you know, I think is it his wife is trying to get there first. I haven't read it in a while,

Josiah 41:19

Yeah.

Anne 41:20

I just remember this sense of,

Josiah 41:21

Ugh.

Anne 41:22

the sense of inevitability and tension as he builds up to making this mistake.

Josiah 41:26

I am getting tense as you're describing.'cause I'm remembering like there are three different storylines, No, four different storylines, four going on at that point. cause there's Judd trying to stop him. There's the wife coming after him. And then there's Ellie who really I would say is her own storyline by the way, if I ever get to meet Stephen King, that's the question I'm gonna ask him, is whatever happened to Ellie? cause obviously she's like, Danny Torrance gifted. She's got the shine somehow. and like she's just back in Chicago while this is going on. I wanna know what happened. Did she grow up? Did they take over Ma? Anyway, but yeah.

Anne 41:54

It is so good and it's so legitimately scary. The, is it, um, Zelda,

Josiah 41:59

Zelda. Yep.

Anne 42:00

Like she's horrifying. Yeah.

Josiah 42:02

my gosh.

Anne 42:02

when we talk about what are the deeper har horrors

Josiah 42:04

Right,

Anne 42:05

is Yeah. Stephen King even says like, that he sort of regrets writing that, right? Because it is so dark and just

Josiah 42:12

Relentless. that is the only word that in so many different ways, relentless, like just works in every way for that story. I could talk about that book all day long. It's so brilliant. And especially with you as a parent, I would love to hear your thoughts more on it too.'cause

Anne 42:25

as a parent. Like

Josiah 42:26

gosh,

Anne 42:27

in college before kids, and then I've read it post kids and it

Josiah 42:30

Yeah. Ugh.

Anne 42:31

with something like hereditary.

Josiah 42:32

Right.

Anne 42:33

So what is your horror origin story? Did you read that? I love horror anthology

Josiah 42:38

Not yet. I want to,

Anne 42:40

It's

Josiah 42:40

but not yet.

Anne 42:40

Check that out. But so many of them have a story of like looking at the back of the VHS. Tapes at like their blockbuster or their local video shop. And that was me. I would gravitate as a little kid to the movies. I wasn't allowed to watch and read the back those VHS because I was just so interested. And then I was at a sleepover, maybe middle school and my friend had an older brother and he put on Candyman and that's, that was it for me. I was so horrified, but so drawn to it at the same time. What about you?

Josiah 43:08

Yeah, for me it was definitely a huge no-no in my house, no horror. Absolutely not. think the first thing I had watched that was like really, really scary was Peter Jackson's, king Kong. have you seen that one? They had some scary scenes in the beginning.

Anne 43:21

of the original,

Josiah 43:22

Oh, okay. I.

Anne 43:22

you know, it's Carl Denim

Josiah 43:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 43:25

and, yeah.

Josiah 43:26

But yeah, I watched that and it just freaked me out and I was too scared and my parents had to send me to bed. but it sparked something in me. And then I started sneaking home, ghost stories. And then I remember the one I can distinctly remember. I found a copy as an adult and I wanna reread it, but, uh, scary stories to Tell in the Dark. remember.

Anne 43:41

kind of recently.

Josiah 43:42

Did you? Oh, it's, I, I imagine it holds up.

Anne 43:44

the green ribbon story around the campfire

Josiah 43:48

Yep.

Anne 43:48

toe one.

Josiah 43:49

The big toe.

Anne 43:50

toe?

Josiah 43:50

That's what I was gonna say.'cause that is the story that sticks in my head. But I would read them. I wasn't allowed to have'em, so I would go in my closet. Great place to read horror.

Anne 43:58

just wanting to protect you

Josiah 43:59

Yeah. They're, they're,

Anne 44:01

think?

Josiah 44:01

I think they wanted us not to live fearfully, like to live with the mindset of being afraid all the time. Like it was definitely a good thing. It wasn't like they were trying to, you know, I was allowed to play video games. I was allowed to, whatever. It wasn't this oppressive thing. For my parents anyway, it was like they just didn't want me to have a mindset of fear and stuff like that. And for me, I think I already had a mindset of fear. I was a very, I was a very scared child. I would, I was scared of, Going places out in public sometimes because I would see people who were, who were very angry and who were yelling, and I was scared that they weren't gonna hurt me. I've got five sisters. I'd have nightmares of losing my sisters, of watching them die. I was already very scared. So then I started reading horror, and it became this outlet for me to kind of face some of the worst things I could imagine and and come out the other end and say, oh, I'm, I'm okay. I, I can do this. It became a safe space.

Anne 44:50

the egg thing.

Josiah 44:51

Yeah.

Anne 44:52

the horror make you scared or Was the fear already there

Josiah 44:56

Right,

Anne 44:56

the outlet?

Josiah 44:57

Exactly.

Anne 44:57

like a lot of people with anxiety are drawn to horror and true

Josiah 45:00

Right.

Anne 45:01

is a sort

Josiah 45:02

A hundred percent.

Anne 45:03

thing now.

Josiah 45:03

definitely. It's something that I've worked through in therapy of like, alright, I've had some experiences in my life that were horrible and really scary. And I talk about a little bit in the book, one experience was losing my best friend at 16. It was like He died in the night aneurysm, no signs, nothing. That's one of the worst things, for his parents. That's, I think that's the worst thing I could think of anyone experiencing would be the loss of a child. but just even everyone around, that's a horrible thing, is this young person who shouldn't die dying. that was horrible and it started this obsession with death that, again, I had been a very scared child, but this kind of, brought. That fear all to a focus of, oh, it's death. It's death behind all of these fears. Like everything that I'm scared of, it's actually death. And so it helped me to focus that in a way. And then digging, digging into horror, I read Pet Cemetery, I read Revival, which is one of my all-time favorite books by Stephen King. again.

Anne 45:53

ones?

Josiah 45:53

Oh yeah.

Anne 45:54

Yeah.

Josiah 45:55

So,

Anne 45:56

here.

Josiah 45:56

no, no, absolutely not. It's funny'cause people say, oh, you're such a happy guy, you're always smiling. Why do you like that stuff I, I guess I,

Anne 46:02

poured into these

Josiah 46:03

exactly. That's why is'cause all that darkness gets to go there. You don't have to deal with it,

Anne 46:08

Mm,

Josiah 46:09

But yeah, I dunno if that answers your question. Kind of roundabout my bad,

Anne 46:12

When do you think story embedded within you? What, I mean, I, I can see why you are drawn to horror. What drove you to write about it?

Josiah 46:19

I'd always loved writing. I loved telling stories. I can remember coming up with like comic books as a kid. Uh, I had the series called Grandpa Ferret about a grandfather ferret and his family. So I always loved writing, but focus, it was fine. I wish I had those. I don't,

Anne 46:33

Yeah, I have some story that I wrote As a kid about something in the clock tower,

Josiah 46:37

Oh,

Anne 46:38

cause I grew up on a boarding school and so

Josiah 46:40

okay.

Anne 46:40

We had run of the school, we're playing in the forest, you know, going to the dining hall, those kind of things. And there was a clock tower that we weren't allowed in.

Josiah 46:47

Yeah.

Anne 46:47

And I

Josiah 46:47

Wow.

Anne 46:48

going on up there, and I, I wish I had it.

Josiah 46:50

Oh, that's cool. That's a cool idea. Rewrite it. You should write it now. That sounds sick. I'd read that.

Anne 46:55

out. Yeah.

Josiah 46:55

but yeah, I think I'd always love stories. so I, I discovered Stephen King when I was like 20. I saw the IT movie cause uh, quick funny side story is that remember the nephew I told you about? He loves horror. So his mom and I used to sneak in the middle of the night. This is slightly after getting into the books and stuff like that. We'd sneak down in the middle of the night and watch paranormal activity series, the Insidious series, all this stuff. again, at midnight we'd sneak down and watch all this stuff. but we went to go see. It when they made the movie and I was like, oh, this is the best movie I've ever seen in my life. I have to read the source material. And then I read the source material. I'm like, this is better. This is so good. yeah. And I read everything via him after that. every Stephen King I get my hands on after that. and so,

Anne 47:32

everything by him? Like have you actually read everything? Because I consider myself a huge Stephen King fan, but

Josiah 47:37

yep.

Anne 47:37

near his greatest fan because I haven't read everything

Josiah 47:41

So I have not read Black House I'm reading right now, girl who loved Tom Gordon.

Anne 47:45

Oh, that's good. that's an unsung classic. That's better than you'd think.

Josiah 47:49

I always don't wanna read it for some reason, but everyone says like, no, that's a gem. So that one, and there's like one or two others I haven't read, and the rest I have,

Anne 47:55

Okay.

Josiah 47:56

I'm

Anne 47:56

doing

Josiah 47:57

getting close.

Anne 47:57

quite that's quite a checklist. Well, what are you writing next? Are you working on anything? I.

Josiah 48:02

Yeah, right now I'm working actually a non horror, um, a non horror story.

Anne 48:06

do that?

Josiah 48:07

It'll sneak its way and I'm a hundred percent sure, but I'm writing a novel right now about a gifted young boy who gets mixed up with a cult.

Anne 48:14

Oh, well, okay. I

Josiah 48:15

it'll,

Anne 48:15

That's her

Josiah 48:16

I guess that is, yeah, it's horror's A pretty broad spectrum. So it's on there somewhere.

Anne 48:20

well, where can we find lies beyond,

Josiah 48:22

It's on, uh, Barnes Noble, Amazon, IngramSpark. So wherever gets your books.

Anne 48:27

Awesome. No audiobook yet, though. Hey.

Josiah 48:29

Not yet, but hey, we got one audio story. So.

Anne 48:32

Oh, and isn't there another story on a different

Josiah 48:34

Yes, full Body Chills Podcast did, stand Inside, which is, one of the scarier ones, in my opinion, in the collection.

Anne 48:41

Well, if you were to turn any of these into a novel, I would recommend the underground cult one

Josiah 48:47

Yes,

Anne 48:48

gets lost.

Josiah 48:49

I would love to.

Anne 48:50

so many questions like, what's going on? Why are they down there? want that backstory.

Josiah 48:54

Oh, me too. I have a lot of questions as well, so I've actually thought about it and this is a good encouragement to, to do that.

Anne 49:00

Okay. you have a pallet cleanser? Is there anything that's making you happy right now?

Josiah 49:04

Yes. My wife and I are going through, I watched it before, but we're going through together her first time Parks and Rec. just a fun. Oh, it's so fun. It's lighthearted. It's like, you know, between that and the office office is good, but I feel like parks and Rec hot, hot take here is actually better. Like the characters improve as people, you know what I mean? Like I feel like they become better people throughout the series and Oh, good. Okay.

Anne 49:26

than the office.

Josiah 49:27

hundred percent.

Anne 49:28

I don't

Josiah 49:28

Okay. I'll be curious. Yeah, we'll see if I get any backlash if this episode gets taken down or

Anne 49:34

it'll be fine. I, I stand by it. I've just started watching, Schitt's Creek with my daughter

Josiah 49:38

fun. We just finished that.

Anne 49:40

much more sexually explicit than I remember. I'm like watching about, I'm like, do you know what that joke is? but it's a lot of fun and she's really loving, David and Alexis,

Josiah 49:49

Oh, they're so funny. That's another one. I feel like they get much better too. That's, it's a great show. We just finished it. Oh, so good.

Anne 49:55

Alright, well you so much for taking the time to chat and for sharing this collection with me Thank

Josiah 49:59

you so much. Such an honor. It was so much fun. I appreciate it.

Anne 50:02

Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or threads. Write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn To Darkness Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.