Drawn to Darkness

19 - Stranger Things: Season 4

• Anne Azano • Episode 19

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In this extra-long deep dive, we unpack  the entire “epic” and “metal” Stranger Things Season 4. This season is a tonal shift from goosebumps to true horror. We’ll explore Vecna/Henry Creel/001, Max’s near-death escape thanks to Kate Bush, as well as the way the show blends horror, sci-fi, action, and 80s nostalgia. We discuss each character’s best moments and arc, as well as our favourite scenes, the Russian prison plotline, Eddie’s heroism, our hopes and dreams for Season 5, and the show’s major themes: grief, depression, friendship, shame and sacrifice.

Spoiler + Content Warning:

Torture, Body horror, including eye mutilation, broken bones, Violence against teenagers, Psychological distress, including depression, suicidal ideation, and severe bullying. A tortured bunny, Child abuse, cult hysteria, and vigilante violence.

*Always check Does the Dog Die? before viewing if you have specific triggers or phobias.

Palette Cleanser

  • Nobody Wants This (Netflix) – Caroline’s romcom pick featuring Seth Cohen (Adam Brody) and Kristen Bell.
  • Go touch grass and go camping

Other Recommendations

  • Thunderbirds because David Harbour is in it.
  • Fantastic Four and A Quiet Place day One to see Eddie! 
  • Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves for a fun fantasy adventure 
  • Men in Black, evoked by the “Weekly Watcher” newspaper reference.
  • Dick – Watergate references.
  • One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest and Girl, Interrupted for depictions of institutionalisation paralleling Eleven’s confinement.
  • The Exorcist – possession and floating 
  • Weeds becauseof  Matthew Modine (Papa) 
  • Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler – dystopian, psychological, and thematically similar.
  • The Talisman by Stephen King and Peter Straub because Lucas is reading it to Max in the final scene.
  • Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, and Piranesi for parallel-realm narratives.
  • Halloween because Vecna’s disappearance echoes Michael Myers
  • The Ring – Max’s countdown mirrors the “seven days” curse.
  • NeverEnding Story, Silence of the Lambs, Nightmare on Elm Street, Jurassic Park, Carrie, It, and any classic Spielberg – all noted as season influences or direct references.
  • Guide to the Unknown – a podcast about real-world Stranger Things-style lore.
  • Ghosts in the Burbs – especially early episodes exploring suburban darkness.
  • 10 Cloverfield Lane – evoked by bunker/silo scenes.
  • The Crucible, Frankenstein, and I Am Legend (novel) – literary parallels to hysteria, monstrosity, and alternate worlds.
  • You’re Wrong About – Dungeons & Dragons episode – for understanding Satanic Panic context.
  • Strange Indeed podcast – episode-by-episode Stranger Things breakdown.
  • Mean Girls – because Angela is the meanest girl.
  • Parks and Recreation – for the town hall scene reference.

Homework:

  • Grey Gardens (1975) – the documentary about Jackie Kennedy Onassis’s eccentric aunts living in a decaying manor, chosen because of the “crumbling Vecna manor vibes.”

Thanks for listening and to the Duffer brothers, don't you dare lay a hand on Steve or Dustin!

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and to Harry Kidd for our opening score (Instagram: @harryjkidd

Anne:

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you will also be inconsolable if Steve Harrington dies. We're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows and books.

Caroline:

And my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne:

So I wanted to start with the question, what is your escape from Vena song? What song would bring you back from the brink of despair?

Caroline:

I think it's hard for me because, my favorite song I think of all time probably is Creep by Radiohead, but like, most of my favorite songs, it's quite sad. So

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

if I try to think about a positive one, it'd probably be Mr. Blue Sky. Um, cause that became a family song after we all watched Guardians Too. And there's an adorable sequence with group dancing and yeah.

Anne:

song that has a positive memory associated with it could work. I came up with Annie. Are you okay? Because only is it directly asking me if I'm okay, I have a fond memory when I was living in Scotland and I was at a, like a bar or a club with some of my friends and that song came on and I was in the bathroom and they all jumped out at me and saying, Annie, are you okay? And so I had this fond memory of that song. also I was thinking, ain't No Mountain High enough, because that's always a song that's brought me joy. And we used to dance around to a lot of Motown records with my mom as kids. So I have some pretty fond memories of all those like Motown songs.

Caroline:

That one would make me sad because it's in stepmom and that is very sad.

Anne:

my

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I, I think it's because it's that combination of joyfulness and bittersweet

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I think the Kate Bush song running Up that hill also has those, those same

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So the reason I'm asking you about what song would save you from Vena is because we are discussing Stranger Things season four Today, this is likely to be a beast of an episode because it is nine movies essentially. And normally we do like one movie. so we're gonna do our best to so wish us luck. Before we get going, if you are listening, we have to assume you are up to date on season four of Stranger Things, as we will be spoiling it. Also be warned, this is not the Stranger Things of season one. This is horror. body horror, eye mutilation, blood broken bones, massacre of children. There's bullying, there's child abuse. Animals are tortured and killed. No dogs, though there's spiders. If that's a phobia, there's a lot. So I always recommend if you have any specific phobias or triggers, check does the dog die? Because it covers a lot more than just what happens to dogs. Okay, go watch it. Come back. we go. A new evil appears on the scene in Hawkins, brutally murdering teenagers who are experiencing depression and shame. It goes after our Girl Max, and she narrowly escapes because of her favorite song Running Up That Hill by Kate Bush. the Hawkins crew have more than a supernatural serial killer to worry about because Jason, the local point guard, and his team of vigilante basketball players are on a mission to track down Eddie, the local d and d dungeon master, whom they believe is the leader of a Satanic cult responsible for killing these teenagers. Eventually, they realize that the monster they're calling Vena from the upside down is Henry Creel. The son of convicted murderer believed dead and actually number one, Dr. Brenner's first child experiment, and he's killing these kids to create gates from the upside down to our world. El going by Jane now is in a dark place after losing her powers in season three and being horrifically bullied at her new school in California. She's brought to a new lab where she discovers that Dr. Brenner is still alive and wants to help her get her powers back. She's separated from Will Mike and Jonathan and their new friend Argyle. Who are on a mission to reunite with her. Meanwhile, hopper is also miraculously alive after the events of season three and suffering in a brutal Russian prison where he's on the menu to be served up to the demic organ they have in captivity. Joyce and Murray had to rescue plan that goes very awry, but they do ultimately make it back to Hawkins. By the end. season culminates in the two and a half hour episode nine, where Vena and El dual it out, and Max's happy memory of the snowball dance. And although with their combined efforts, they stop vena slash creole slash one, it's too late for Max who dies, but is brought back to life by El and ends the season in a coma death though brief opens up a gate bigger than anything we've seen before in Hawkins. And by the end, the telltale flakes of fallout are floating through Hawkins and fields of wildflowers are rotting. The upside down is here. How's that summary?

Caroline:

Wow. cause also, not only is it so long, but it's like you're coming into a story at season four, which we have also not done that.

Anne:

I would have to assume that anyone listening to this? either someone who loves us they are existing

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

Things. So what adjective would you use to describe

Caroline:

Well I was sort of upset that I used perfect on screen. but I guess in line with Eddie and honor of him, I'm gonna say epic.

Anne:

Metal.

Caroline:

Yeah, So metal.

Anne:

Yeah, it is, surprisingly violent, but also nostalgic. I love the way this show has matured from its middle school origins, graduating from Stein and Goosebumps to Nightmare on Elm Street and Stephen King. Much darker tone. It's very scary.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

It covers a lot of my main fears. I hate spiders. I hate breaking bones. Like that's a major issue for me when I watch horror. Like I don't wanna see breaking bones and I don't like ticking clocks.

Caroline:

Oh my God.

Anne:

Baby episode, I joke that one of the true horrors in the film is a ticking clock in a bedroom when you're trying to sleep. And boy is a ticking clock in Stranger Things dread inducing.

Caroline:

Oh my gosh. And it's so funny. So while I was watching this, my middle child was playing a Roblox game called Role Play two, and I, there's a sound effect, recurring sound effect in the game of the chime of a grandfather clock. And I kept being like, is that, is that happening in the show? You know, like, I couldn't because it looked, it sounds exactly the same.

Anne:

You know, as I was watching the episode nine finale, was a storm outside like this roll of thunder kind of echoed through my house and I was like,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

God. Right? that clock chime. It's so relentless. I think the way a grandfather clock swings back and forth, it kind of ev evokes the pit in the pendulum, but I think it's really the sound design that gets me, like it distorts the chime. It's really

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

you combine it with the imagery of Vena or what he's creating in the minds of his victims. Freddie Krueger one of the things that really scared me as a kid. sometimes when I still wake up now in the middle of the night, I'll see the image in my head of his arms like lengthening out. And it still kind of gets to me. It's very unsettling.

Caroline:

I actually, I don't mind spiders. I had a pet spider in my house growing up, which just meant

Anne:

are like Henry Creel. Oh

Caroline:

I, like, well, I just like wouldn't let my parents kill it. It just lived in a corner of a bathroom and I named it Charlotte and I talked to it. So yeah, I don't have a spider thing, But I get it. I don't like gore though. And you know, there's a lot in this, a lot of stuff that I don't usually like to see.

Anne:

Yeah. But I think a lot of the gore is balanced

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

certainly over the whole series with nostalgia and fun. And there's beautiful themes like, the nostalgia for childhood, the importance of loyalty, the of friends growing apart, love sacrifice.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

terms of the darker themes, it's also exploring grief, trauma, depression, Suicidal ideation. And lots of fun tropes. Kids biking around on a mission is one of my favorite things,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

this,

Caroline:

sure.

Anne:

I just love it. just another side note, I enjoyed all the Star Wars references. Marie and Joyce's plan to get into the prison is very Han Solo and Luke breaking into the Death Star to Rescue Leia.

Caroline:

Yeah. And doesn't someone say, I have a bad feeling about this. I wrote it down, but I didn't write down who said it. Okay.

Anne:

When they're going back. to the prison,

Caroline:

Yeah. When they're going back.

Anne:

tells ready to act casual as they approach

Caroline:

Yep,

Anne:

murder. when The bad wing of the government is breaking into the silo

Caroline:

totally.

Anne:

the opening of New Hope.

Caroline:

I had, I had that They're even the boo boo, you know, like the Yeah, it's exactly the same.

Anne:

an l going after Vena to save her friends is very, Luke leaving Yoda before his training is complete. Vena burning up is the transformation of Anakin to Darth Vader. There's obviously just the whole, the one, the hero's journey, I think this season is Stranger Things. Empire Strikes Back, right? Like it ends with the bad guys winning

Caroline:

sure.

Anne:

nearly dead in a coma like Han Solo's frozen and Carbonite. So definitely lots of illusions to one of our favorite movies

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Franchises.

Anne:

Yeah. let's talk about setting 1986. Did you have any favorite eighties references?

Caroline:

Right when it opens and I saw a paper boy, I remembered how much I loved that Nintendo game and nobody else loved it. They all was like, this is the most boring game on earth. But I, I really liked Paper Boy.

Anne:

I never had a Nintendo. I was only allowed to play at my friends' houses, if you've been listening, my parents did not let me watch 9 0 2 and oh, and we didn't have cable, so I was very deprived.

Caroline:

and I was a latchkey kid, so everything was game, but, but, we had a Nintendo, but we did not have the game paperboy, so I could only play it at other people's houses, and I did love it.

Anne:

I did play duck hunt at friends'

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

like Erica wants a goddamn Nintendo with Duck

Caroline:

Yeah. Felt that, you know, the jewelry box that has the music, I had that I got one for my daughter, that was nostalgic. The discussion of encyclopedias, did you have encyclopedias? I'm guessing now?

Anne:

No, but I was super jealous of everyone that did. That was definitely a marker of success and wealth in my mind,

Caroline:

We had them before, before my family went bankrupt. I wonder if they were repossessed or if we sold but we had them. Yeah, we had them and I loved, I would just take out a letter and just spend hours. I loved it.

Anne:

Yeah. what about Mrs. Wheeler's hair?

Caroline:

Yeah. I mean, the hair and the clothes, everything is, was very nostalgic.

Anne:

The Ewok cartoon? Somebody's watching an Ewok cartoon at some point. nobody knows what the internet or an IP address is except

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

and of course, the skate rinks.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

you enjoy skate rinks.

Caroline:

Well, I did until I broke my wrist at one, for a birthday party, I think.

Anne:

we were so popular and then they just faded away. I have a skate rink humiliation story. as bad as ELs, but it was my birthday and I had a party and didn't realize how much of a center of attention I would be at this party. So the DJ brought up a microphone and asked me to pick a song and I blanked and I couldn't think of a song that existed in the world, I just froze. And eventually he was like, uh, okay. backed off me. And then they had me lead the skating conga line and I fell like I stacked it. And it was just the worst birthday. cause I was just like, nobody told me this. all these people were gonna be looking at me.

Caroline:

if it makes you feel better, I think it was a birthday party or a Girl Scout trip, and we saw these people like smoothly going from the rink to the carpet area, just like, like, it's nothing. And I was like, well, it looks like that's easy. And I tried to do it immediately, wiped out, used my hand to brace my fall, broke my wrist, and nobody believed me that my wrist was broken. So I spent like a full day with a broken wrist that my parents, like, nobody believed it was broken.

Anne:

Typical eighties

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

it off.

Caroline:

I know. Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. we've spent a lot of time in this podcast paying attention to background posters. We talked about that in midnight mass what posters Riley has up, and Nancy has a Tom Cruise poster, which Robin Gleefully points out, has a Jaws poster and a little Shop of Horrors, which I thought you'd appreciate. And I think Will, or it might be Jonathan. Somebody also has an REM poster, which I really loved because one of my favorite scenes in season one is when Will and Jonathan are sitting in his room listening to The Clash. And I always loved that scene because that happened with my brother, but it was with REM. Like I just have a memory of sitting in my brother's room listening to REM.

Caroline:

Yeah. My brother was big into REM also.

Anne:

We both have significantly older brothers who introduced us to music

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

and just the music obviously love the eighties music. The Kate Bush song is the one that really came out, but also the Metallica song that, Eddie's playing at the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

soundtrack is just so good. And I think it the experience that many of us have had about how cathartic music can be and how it can pull you out of a state of despair or reflect the feelings that you're having, whether that's anger or sadness or whatever. And they really do that to beautiful effect here.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

In terms of place, our characters are the first time really leaving Hawkins, like last week's episode about the Cecil Hotel Hawkins has become a nexus of evil and characters are wondering how so many tragedies can be fall a once peaceful town. But we're not just in Hawkins. We've got Hopper in a frigid Russian prison camp. Joyce will, Jonathan and Al are in California. Al ends up in that kind of Roswell like lab in the desert. So we are split up for the first time

Caroline:

I always love like anything that illustrates California landscape, it's so beautiful out there like every time you go out west, I find it always so jarring, how far you can see away from where you are. Because like here, everything's very hilly and the trees are all really tall and they're like right up against the road and you just can't see that far in the northeast. Like you can when you go out west and you're like, that is so far away. And I can see it. It's crazy.

Anne:

I've never really experienced that'cause I've never driven through the West. I've been, I've been to LA and driven, an hour or two outside of la but that's

Caroline:

Have you been to Colorado? Or Colorado, I think is, I'm supposed to say I remember going there for the first time and feeling like I was gonna fall off the earth. Like it really felt like the earth is flat and I'm gonna just, like, someone's just gonna tilt this thing and I'm gonna slide right off.

Anne:

maybe that's why some people believe

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

the Alaska Cach Cka thing, it reminded me of Tina Fey as Sarah Palin on Saturday Night Live saying that she can see Russia from her

Caroline:

Totally. Yep.

Anne:

just like jumping across. Uh, one of my favorite aspects of the setting is of course, Victor Creole's abandoned, crumbling, gothic Victorian manner, which reminded me of, what we talked about in our yellow wallpaper episode. The house on Knee bolt street and its, which is one of penny wise's layers. I'm sure that, welcome to dairy has just come out when we're recording this, so I bet we will be seeing that again. The Marsden House in Salem's Law and just other great houses of gothic stories Oh, it's beautiful, but also so creepy when it falls into disrepair. subtitles did you watch with subtitles?

Caroline:

I only made note of one though. So when Joyce and Hopper are changing, the subtitle says, quote, delicate yearning. Music playing.

Anne:

I love when subtitles tell me how I'm supposed to feel about the music, I find that very funny, there was one unsettling Russian music, sinister music continues to build, then the grossest one was Dagor Feeding Wetly

Caroline:

Oh, gross. but did it make you think of forgetting Sarah Marshall?

Anne:

uh, no, I don't remember what you're talking about.

Caroline:

Oh. cause in forgetting Sarah Marshall, jason Siegel, is a musician for the crime show that Sarah Marshall, his girlfriend works on. And he always is told like, play something ominous, you know? And like he just has to sort of take direction from what's happening in the scene. And he has like a whole meltdown.. It's good.

Anne:

My favorite part of that movie is, you shall not pass. And that's really the only thing that stuck with me. Well, let's talk about characters. First of all, puberty has hit these kids hard. am nervous to see how old they'll look in season five, but I mean, what can you do?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

and nineties casting was just as old, so we just need to roll with it.

Caroline:

Yeah. Has hit these full adults hard.

Anne:

Yes. side characters shout out, before we get into the main people, That slacker guard that agent, he was just chilling and watching TV and he turned out to be lethal. Do you remember

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

That scene was actually

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

and it was one shot. I went back and re-watched it because I was like, was that one shot? And it is. That must have been such an effort to. Coordinate and choreograph and film. And it was one of those times where this sci-fi horror show really strays into just like an action movie.

Caroline:

Totally.

Anne:

Also when Elle takes out that helicopter. Very cool.

Caroline:

Oh yeah. My God. I love that. When El takes out the helicopter.

Anne:

Did you have any other favorite minor characters?

Caroline:

Eddie's Uncle

Anne:

really bad for him.

Caroline:

like a sweet, sad man, seemed like a good guy, but he also really looked like, Napoleon's Uncle Rico.

Anne:

Uncle Rico. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. I see that particularly Uncle Rico when he's in White Lotus because

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

diminished. Yeah. shout out to Ted. Like, has some funny lines in this, like when he is grumpy about everyone using the house as a base and he is like, you could try sticking together at a different house for a change.

Caroline:

Mr. Wheeler?

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Ted

Caroline:

Okay. I didn't remember his name, but I loved when he was like, where's the FBI? I mean, we've got a serial killer on the loose. Meanwhile, the kids have been gone for like hours and he,

Anne:

I know

Caroline:

they have no idea where the children are

Anne:

he has like the most inane comments. he's like, oh, the news now is indistinguishable from the tablet.

Caroline:

felt. Tell me about it.

Anne:

Yeah, very

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

uh, let's see, who else? Susie saves the day again. So shout out to her. and her. Ali Sheie, lookalike Sister

Caroline:

I had

Anne:

falls in

Caroline:

the same note. I was like, is that, that is Ali Shedi also. I love when he's like, can you print that? And she's like, no, my skills end at IP geolocation.

Anne:

Yeah, sassy.

Caroline:

Love it.

Anne:

Uh, Yuri the pilot. I was so mad at him, but I suppose he redeems himself by the end.

Caroline:

I don't know if I could get there. I'm still a little mad at him.

Anne:

It was a very big gut punch when he did that. We'll talk about that in a bit. Antonov, Is his first name, Dmitri slash uh, Enzo. um, Hopper's friend

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

really like him.

Caroline:

in addition to having a niece named Enzo, I always think of, I am Enzo the baker in Godfather two. Whenever I hear Enzo and then I always remember.

Anne:

And I know he's not in the season, but I just have to give my love to the science teacher, Mr. Clark, who talks about keeping the curiosity door open. I adore his character, so I kind of missed him that they didn't call him for some information at some point. and you know, Mrs. Wheeler, she is somewhat of a major character, I love how her style changes with every season, lots of fun, eighties nods. and I just love how she's just catching anything that's going on right under her nose. She's so clueless, but then at the same time, she's there and she's supportive when they need her. As a mother of people entering the tween and teenage, era, feel for her as she's trying to be there for them when they are closed off to her. So I appreciate whenever Mike or Nancy finally opens up to her and hugs her,

Caroline:

yeah. I do get the vibe from her that she's straight up supportive, you know, as a parent.

Anne:

yeah. and I do worry about her and Holly in season five because Vena has directly threatened them to Nancy. So I think some of these characters who have been able to remain blissfully ignorant of everything that's going on beneath the surface will not be able to do so anymore. Any others minor characters.

Caroline:

No, I think that was all the ones that I noted.

Anne:

All right. Well let's talk about the main characters. I re-watched from the beginning, so in season three, when they're all briefly together at the mall, it's so satisfying when they all come together. But in this season, they're really split up. There's a lot of scattering and reshuffling of partnerships like Ellen and Will are like brother and sister. Joyce and Murray are working together. Hopper's paired up with the guard. Jonathan's getting baked with Argyle. Nancy and Robin are investigating together. Nancy and Steve seem to be potentially rekindling things. And then we've got Steve and Dustin, Steve and Eddie, Dustin and his two dads. Will and Mike, did you have a favorite partnership?

Caroline:

I mean, I love where they've taken Steven Robin. it does make me. Wish for, the chance for them to be together, which is not a thing that could occur, but I do love their chemistry and their vibe and partnership I think is great. I also really love Dustin and, Eddie. no shade to Dustin and Steve, but it was really sweet. I guess Dustin can just like, sink with anyone,

Anne:

I'm so happy that Dustin, who is this kid who, you know. he, he points out that no one was nice to him and Mike when he gets to high school and he is the type of kid that's a target,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

But he's such a good kid and I love that he's found these people to appreciate him. And steve and Eddie basically like share custody of

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

and it is so cute. Like, when they agree that he's a butthead or they're bonding over being annoyed by his tone. And I love the scene where they're walking through the forest in the upside down and Eddie tells Steve that Dustin worships him. And you can just see that Steve is so pleased to hear that and that, they kind of admit that they've both been jealous of the other because they just genuinely adore and appreciate Dustin who deserves that appreciation.

Caroline:

Totally. I mean, if anyone's the heart, I don't know if I think it's Mike,

Anne:

Well, Dustin has been separated really since season two.

Caroline:

mm-hmm.

Anne:

He's been kind of off doing different things, whereas the others have been more together.

Caroline:

Yeah. But he's so like, I don't know, so lovable in every way.

Anne:

I love the way Steve and Dustin are bickering. Like when Dustin says You're just jealous because I have another older male friend I just laugh out loud at that

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And when Steve sighs, because he is partnered up with Dustin and Dustin just calls him out and he gives him all this too. Like, what are you a child? Do I have to tell you

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

But then despite all the shit they give each other, they're also so sweet, like when they're sitting in the backseat eating Pringles and goals. And that time it's early on when Steve makes a joke about Dustin's teeth then he realizes he's gone too far and is immediately like, oh, I'm so sorry. It's so sweet.

Caroline:

Yeah. It is very sweet.

Anne:

I think my favorite Dustin Steve moment is when they're trying to decide who drives And who goes with

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And Robin's like, I don't have a license. And then Dustin gives Steve this, how about me look? And it's just so cute. He, his expressions are just fantastic. And yeah, I just, I love his thinking cap. I love the way he works it all out. Oh, and one of my favorite Dustin Eddie scenes is when he's like, the shire is burning,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

it is,

Caroline:

When Steve says What, what is, mortar?

Anne:

he has no idea. Dustin like jumps up And down with glee. And tied into What, you said about the uncle Dustin is able to give Eddie's uncle some sense of closure, which is something Nancy struggled to do with Barb's family.'cause when the upside down takes you, how do you explain that to people?

Caroline:

I have that here too, is I guess a lingering question is you know, he says he died saving this town. if this were my niece or nephew or charge, I would be like, how do you mean? You know, like,

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

what do you mean by that? How did he save this town? You know,

Anne:

like some more

Caroline:

Yeah. Please.

Anne:

Well, we haven't really talked about Steve and Nancy, are you shipping them again?

Caroline:

Absolutely. I mean, you know what? To be honest though, I, don't get what Nancy sees in, Jonathan, there's not really anything appealing there that I saw.

Anne:

maybe it's just the trauma bonding, that they went through things in season one and two and they happen to be teenagers alone in Marie's house, away from their parents. And yeah, have some chemistry,

Caroline:

ultimately I think Steve is more fun than Nancy is, and so I think that's why I wish he could be with Robin, because Robin is fun and he is fun and But ultimately what's most important to me is that Steve is happy then he gets his six kids in his camper. and he can do that with whoever he wants. And if he's chosen Nancy, then I want him to have Nancy.

Anne:

I mean, it is very sweet how he wants basically chubby chase's vacation. But,

Caroline:

fantasizing about other women,

Anne:

Yes. That dream is very sweet, though. She rightly points out that it would be a nightmare. It's easy for the man to want six babies who doesn't have to give birth to them. I do wonder if they should be together because their values are very different. Nancy makes that kind of speech in season one about not wanting the nice house on the cul-de-sac in a family, so his dream is kind of her nightmare, but they've always had good chemistry,

Caroline:

their chemistry is off the charts in this season. It's really, it's palpable.

Anne:

like when she's checking out his chest hair before he jumps in the lake.

Caroline:

Oh my God. It's, I mean, and that's like, obviously I don't want Nancy to be miserable either. I just don't like her as much. she's not, not likable, she's just not as likable as steeper Robin.

Anne:

Yeah. max is pretty into the chest hair too. That's pretty cute when she hangs

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne:

of my favorite Nancy, Steve moments is how relieved she looks when she's talking to the cops about Freddy's murder. And then Steve and everybody shows up and they just make eye contact and it's just, it's so sweet. And Robin wants it too. She wants to see the rekindling of old flames that should never have been snuffed out. I also appreciate Eddie Steve to get Nancy back. what does he say that was as unambiguous a sign of true love as these cynical eyes have ever seen. I love that line

Caroline:

He is so great. But one thing I will say about Robin's statement is that I don't know that I agree. It never should have been snuffed out. In fact, I think Steve's take on it is more accurate, where he's like, you kick my ass to make me a better person. and now he's a person, Who is worthy. Yeah.

Anne:

do feel for Steve, he's got that coolest guy who peaked in high school thing,

Caroline:

mm-hmm.

Anne:

Who we would usually see as the villain or the loser in a show like this. And he's kind of on that line, like he's going to high school after events, after graduation. He's working at Scoop of Hoy. And I have sympathy for kids in that stage when you don't really know what to do with your, with your life. And Steve is dealing with that. One thing I noticed when Nancy and Jonathan are reunited, they don't kiss on the lips. He kisses her on the forehead and they hug. I was watching for that.

Caroline:

I hate a forehead kiss. It's so infantilizing. I just, I'm not, I'm not into that.

Anne:

it doesn't reflect sexual chemistry and

Caroline:

no, it doesn't. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I often hold my breath in movies when characters have to hold their breath. Ever since I was a kid in Princess Bride, when they get sucked into the lightning sand, I would hold my breath

Caroline:

same.

Anne:

to see could I survive?

Caroline:

same.

Anne:

That's so funny. and Steve was down in that lake for way longer than I was comfortable

Caroline:

I I wrote that down as well.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

I wrote He is down for so long, Like in all caps.

Anne:

was like, are you remembering that you have to get back up?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

he was very lucky there was no water in the upside down version of the lake because he would've drowned when He came out on the other

Caroline:

Seriously. I did make a note that when Steve first gets grabbed under the water, that his thrash was very like Jaws reminiscent.

Anne:

Yes. When he gets pulled back

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Now when those bad things come after him, I'm with Robin. I'm worried about bats are the source of a lot of viral spillovers to humans, nevermind bats from an, alternate universe. There is that element of the upside down that seems toxic and I'm concerned about that for our characters and whether that will come back to get them at some point.

Caroline:

yeah. That's interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Anne:

All these characters have spent time in the upside down breathing in that fallout like flakes, which all very reminiscent of the way radiation is depicted in media. And I do wonder how that will impact them. Like, hopper talks about being cursed because of the Agent Orange thing. Steve mentions inhaling whatever's floating around in the upside down. And I'm, I'm, yeah. I'm just worried that something that is metastasizing inside them because they've been exposed to the upside down. I mean, cancer toxicity These are very big themes in this, whether it's like the Agent Orange thing that Hopper talks about. You know, I, I have someone in my life who was exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam and has cancer and, you know, everyone he knows has had cancer, and hopper's daughter's death, which makes me cry. and then there's people who say that show is like an allegory for cancer, the way you can fight back, but it comes back stronger and deadlier, the rotting beneath the surface, the malignant spread. And know, I think the final spread of the upside down into Hawkins is, I guess recalling that. So yes, I'm worried about that aspect.

Caroline:

Yeah, that's interesting.

Anne:

So yeah, people think Robin's silly when she talks about rabies, but I don't know. I wonder, is that a hint? But it would be a very depressing way to end things.

Caroline:

I think it would also be hard because things like that are like a long term effect that would be a lot further down the line, probably maybe even years.

Anne:

Well, I mean, you look at it chapter one and chapter two, You've got characters who are fighting something off as children and then coming back as adults. if the duffer brothers wanted to, they could write a, Gen X people in their fifties, you know, fighting a new evil.

Caroline:

Mm

Anne:

At some point in the future and struggling with the aftermath of having been in the upside down

Caroline:

mm

Anne:

they could take that direction.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

do you have any other favorite Steve moments?

Caroline:

my husband glanced at my notes one day and I was like, Steve is so great. Eddie's so great. How do you choose? Like, they're, they're both so wonderful. And I actually, along these lines, I really made a note that I was like, the Duffer brothers, Like they can write sexy men, Or the writers that support them. I,'cause I actually didn't look at the writing credits, but these men are, positive masculinity and it's so appealing and so attractive. And I love almost everything they do because they just ooze it,

Anne:

Yeah. And you know? Steve goes back and forth between being. The babysitter with the towel over his shoulder to the hero. Like when he falls into the upside down with that like cool flip and when he's the one who's like, I'm on, I was on the swim team, like I'm gonna be the one to do this. But then he's got these goofy moments like he tries to repeat that Charlotte Holmes quotation to Nancy and totally botches it.

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

That made me laugh.

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

we've already talked about the Mordor not understanding what Mordor is or any of Eddie's metal references, but I think one of my favorite funny Steve moments is when he's like, why is this wizard obsessed with clocks? Maybe he's like a clock maker or something. I love that

Caroline:

I do too. Oh my God, he is so good.

Anne:

Did you

Caroline:

I

Anne:

hot tub time machine?

Caroline:

like once though.

Anne:

Okay, well it just reminded me of this really dumb moment in hot tub time machine when all these characters are putting together, you know what happened. And that guy from the office is like, it must be some kind of hot tub time machine. And any kind of breaks the fourth wall and stairs into the camera. What this looked like. This is the dumbest line I've ever

Caroline:

I do remember that.

Anne:

and, and that just reminded me of, is he some kind of clock

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Let's see. Well, Nancy is definitely giving Andrea Zuckerman working at the school

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

If you were a character in this, I think you would be Nancy, because you are good at investigating things. I won't go into the details, but when you suspected about someone in our circle, you went all out with your investigation skills my husband always says, you need a show called Caroline Investigates.

Caroline:

yeah, I guess so. It is a little sad for me that I'm most like the character that I think is like the least interesting.

Anne:

Nancy is awesome.

Caroline:

She's,

Anne:

you

Caroline:

badass.

Anne:

selling her short. yeah. she's badass and she's sawing off the

Caroline:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne:

You look at her arc from when she's swinging that bat in season one and she can, terrible at swinging the bat to her sawing off a shotgun and being the one to of step forward and shoot at Vena, she's awesome.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

One of her most difficult scenes, best scenes was so tough to watch. When Vena gets her into

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

layer and she's in the pool where Barb died, she has that easy target shame, regret and guilt and the pool kind of starting to fill with blood. Felt very the shining.

Caroline:

Totally. And then I thought it was cool. cause he says to her, tell El, right?

Anne:

Yeah. That's the only reason she survives.

Caroline:

for once somebody has figured out a way to have a villain explain all the details of his nefarious plan and have it not be like, why would they do this? You know, like,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

because every other time it's like Austin Powers,

Anne:

Yeah. You sly dog. You got me monologuing.

Caroline:

You know?

Anne:

I do think vena monologuing at the end in this final episode to L is a bit

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

but like, a good part of his motivation is revenge. He needs l to know.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I think I'll allow it. I mean, I have been known to text photos of my house after cleaning it to my husband to be like, look what I did the kids mess it up again. So I get needing your hard work to be acknowledged. yeah. I, I did think there was a slight missed opportunity there with Nancy. you mentioned the ballerina box and that Robin kind of makes a big deal about how she has that ballerina music box. like they should have played that and that could have brought her back, but

Caroline:

Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Anne:

else you wanna say about Nancy?

Caroline:

no. no.

Anne:

Well, let's talk about Robin. I love how her character has blossomed

Caroline:

And I gotta say, like, if I were to pick a me, it would be Robin, two different times she said lines that I have felt so hard. Like there was one where she was just like, I have this problem where I can't stop talking. And I'm like telling myself, you gotta stop talking. And it's just like, there's, there's open space and I gotta fill it with my noise. And I, I was just like, hello. Yes. That is how I feel all the time. And then,

Anne:

how she takes six months longer to walk than other babies. She's like, I'm unsteady as it is.

Caroline:

Yeah. she also overs shares, which is the thing that I do. I think she also has a line about her her thoughts moving faster. Then she can sort of express them. And I know that is something I also felt

Anne:

Well, speaking of, her, no filter talking. Should we talk about the asylum scene where she makes that fantastic speech? And I love that she says, this is very relatable to me, that she couldn't sleep. Not because she was scared, but because she was obsessed with the question. What would drive a human being to commit such unimaginable acts? I also love that she and Nancy team up there, because I think in season three she calls Nancy a PRIs. Like, why would you

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Which is also something I would've said.

Anne:

Yeah. But I, I like how these characters have these, preconceptions about each other. Like, Eddie think thinks Steve is a jerk. He's the cool, popular rich guy. Like of course he's a jerk, he's not. And like, once you get to know people, you can see that they're more than what they seem.

Caroline:

it's very breakfast club.

Anne:

Yeah. Like with Ellie Sheedy, that asylum scene was so good. Various signs of lambs. Obviously glad Nancy and Robin didn't get the MIGS treatment as they walked towards his cell.

Caroline:

speaking of like signs of the times or whatever, having to stick the key into the slot is only something I very recently stopped doing. Within the past two years, having a car that had the key like sticks in. Um,

Anne:

okay.

Caroline:

and when they're like running away and they've gotta start the car, I was just like, ah, you know?

Anne:

Yeah, I almost forgot that that was once the way we had to

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

This is also an important scene because this is when we meet Victor Creel, played by Robert Englund of Freddie Krueger fame, his eyes are sliced up by razor blades, just horrifying imagery.

Caroline:

Yeah. Do you think that the baby would still be crying? I don't think so.

Anne:

Well, it's his memory, right? So

Caroline:

I kn I know, but even, yeah. Okay.'cause even in his memory, like even if this all happened and he got to the scene or whatever, that, I don't think the baby would still be crying by the time he got there.

Anne:

screaming baby on fire made me wanna throw up. It's horrific.

Caroline:

very rough.

Anne:

Yeah. so this is the moment that haunts Victor Creole and the moment his own son forces him to relive, showing that Vena takes pleasure in the torment. we also learned that it was music that brought Victor back with that star shining right above you. And Robin's the one who puts together, which is great that she's the one because this, scene is so good because if my memory's correct, it's episode four that we've got, dear Billy, the asylum scene and hopper's escape all happening simultaneously. Right. I might be confusing Hoppers escape, but

Caroline:

Yeah, I'm not sure about Hopper's escape,

Anne:

But it's just, it's so good. we get. Victor Creole's version of of events, which is wrong, missing information, but it's such a good creepy flashback and it's kind of like sense, like the signs are there,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Henry is you know, we see the signs of a sociopath, animal mutilation, but then that's also a demonic possession trope to throw us off the scent. And we get that Henry was sensitive, but I think most of us assume he was sensitive, kind of like Elle is sensitive or will is sensitive. And he says Henry was in a coma and died a week later. Did you put it together that Henry was Vena?

Caroline:

I was gonna ask you that because I know you and my husband both love to spoil things by predicting things accurately before they happen. I did. put that together. I did think it's probably the son.

Anne:

Yeah. I mean, the fact that the son. is in a coma and dies is different from the daughter, getting risen up and having her

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

there was a red flag. I mean, I, I honestly don't remember what I thought at the time, but I I feel like I suspected,

Caroline:

I did not suspect he was the orderly. I,

Anne:

I suspected the orderly was one, but I, don't know if I put orderly one together with Henry Vena.

Caroline:

yeah, I'd agree. And I actually don't know when I figured out the orderly was one or even that he was bad. that was more the surprise, but definitely like figured out the sun must be involved.

Anne:

Some

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

But really does come together very

Caroline:

it does. Yeah. Because I think it's okay to be able to predict a part of it. you know,

Anne:

well, yeah, we talked about this at some point or the other with Game of Thrones that the writers wanted a twist and they

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I just remembered another thing I forgot to mention. In my Robin category, I love when they're profiling people based on the movies they rented.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

That is so something I would've done as well.

Anne:

Yes. That's very cute. And, I'm so jealous of them for working at that video store. Flash back to Randy and

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

better job than Scoop soho. And I wanna give a shout out to all the lucky kids like you who got jobs at cinemas, record shops and video rental places in the eighties and nineties. I am super jealous.

Caroline:

It was a time.

Anne:

I bet. I also love just the way she and Steve, you know, that Steve supports

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

he keeps her secret, the way they looks when, like Tammy Thompson starts singing at the basketball

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

and I just adore how happy he is for her at the end when she's talking. I can't remember the band girl's name,

Caroline:

Me neither.

Anne:

likes and they're making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches together and they're so suited to each other and he's just smiling. It's

Caroline:

she makes a peanut butter and peanut butter sandwich, and I was like, subliminal message much, you know, like.

Anne:

Yeah, I didn't think about that. That's fantastic. Um,

Caroline:

her outfit in that scene. She's, she's got like all sorts of patterns and suspenders and all like very cool mixing of patterns in a way that Rand RAF could also do. And I only dreamed of being able to do, you know?

Anne:

Speaking of, outfits, Elle needs another styling session from Max because she is dressing like Joyce Bys And, you know, when we look at her in season three with the fun colors, I'm like, go back to that Elle,

Caroline:

Yeah. Although I would've dressed like, like she's dressing in this.

Anne:

Jonathan, let's talk about Jonathan. Appreciate Jonathan, which is why I feel a little guilty for shipping Nancy and Steve. You know, he's sweet and caring and I think they're still together in real life, the actors, but he's not given much to do this season. He seems kind of lost in drifting and very high. Right?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

much the only thing he gets to do is give, will sympathetic looks the rear view mirror in the car and stuff like that.

Caroline:

I was irritated with him because, it's not very like, appealing when you're done with high school to be just like sit sitting around in a stoner, you know, like Argyle has more drive. he's like way into his pizza shop, and I just wish that Jonathan seemed passionate about anything but dicking around, you know?

Anne:

yeah, I get lost, but he used to be so passionate about photography, right? Right. And so, you know, I get he's got this sense of responsibility to his mom and will, but I also think go to Emerson, even if not for Nancy, go for, go for yourself, right?

Caroline:

yeah. Or, or go to college nearby. Like, he doesn't need to go to across the country if he doesn't want to. I bet it's really expensive for his mom who's selling encyclopedias. He's definitely not getting a scholarship.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

And he doesn't need to go to college, just get a job. Just do something. I, I just feel like he was just doing nothing and I, I don't know, I feel like he's the least traumatized person of this main cast,

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

you know?

Anne:

Well, having to watch Will in season two is traumatizing. When they're like burning

Caroline:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Anne:

that's, that's tough. You can see it pains him and he's trying to get Joyce to back off Argyle, I appreciate Argyle juvenile sense of humor. Like one of my favorite argyle moments is when they're just hitting golf club golf balls and he keeps like making the golf club fart.

Caroline:

I loved him. I would've had such a crush on him. I loved him.

Anne:

yeah, He's so fun. I love his very colorful pants and

Caroline:

What? And I just kept feeling like, man, this guy really didn't know what he was getting into by just like befriending this person. all of a sudden there's like dead bodies and like, dimension, and he's just like, I'm here man. I'm here. And supportive. You know

Anne:

He does have that complete and utter crash out when they're bearing the body, which makes sense. that's how most people would

Caroline:

that grave

Anne:

you were thrown into this

Caroline:

that I understand that it is really hard to dig a hole. I get that. And I know that I couldn't do it, but that was the shallowest grave I've ever seen. That guy's hand was like sticking out,

Anne:

Well, and it's gonna be signed with their

Caroline:

right?

Anne:

but Yeah. Will Jonathan, Mike, they've all seen some shit, but this is new to Argyle.

Caroline:

Yeah. When he writes all the names and he is like, why are you putting our names on it? And he's like, it's, they're very basic common names as if Argyle is the common name.

Anne:

not,

Caroline:

I only know one other Argyle and he's from diehard.

Anne:

I've never enc, well, I guess only in tv.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

And he is got that great love at first sight moment with the Ellie Sheie doppelganger at Susie's house, and he's

Caroline:

E

Anne:

to do anything for

Caroline:

Eden, like the garden?

Anne:

Eden. Yeah. since we're talking about Argyle pineapple and pizza, what do you think?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

I'm okay with it. I've had it, I wouldn't choose it, but Have you tried before you denied,

Caroline:

I think I've tried. I can't remember. I just remember watching it and my husband and I are on opposite sides of this debate and he was very victorious

Anne:

drank for Caroline, mentioning her husband.

Caroline:

twice already.

Anne:

I also enjoy Argyle and Jonathan trying, not reading the room, but trying to kind of talk off the ledge when they're driving back from the skating rink he's like, that prom queen's gonna be just fine. And blip, blip, blip and smacking.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

Shall we talk about Mike?

Caroline:

sure.

Anne:

I have to admit, I don't really like Mike.

Caroline:

neither. I feel like he was gaslighting out, you when he was like, what is the big deal about, like, not saying it when he had already said it. I don't know.

Anne:

she's begging you say it and I, I guess that's the arc, right? Like he's, it's hard to say I love you. Like, I get that he's a teenage boy, but, know, I guess it made it more meaningful when he does say it when she's in the, salt bath freezer at the end. but yeah, very repressed. I'm, I also was very pissed off at him. The attitude he gives Hopper in season three, I think hopper's mad at them for closing the door and like hanging out with al all the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I'm very irritated with him and the way he treats my boy

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

but yeah, I think it does reflect a major theme of this about being open with the people you love. Mike needs to say I love you, he finally does, and that's what she needs to hear to keep fighting. Max needs to accept Lucas's love and support will needs to open up to somebody about what he's feeling. And I, I do appreciate that as the season goes on, Mike becomes but I, I mean, I kind of get his, I feel like he's right to be concerned that he's not good enough for Al.

Caroline:

Yeah, I agree.

Anne:

I don't think it matters to her, Mike isn't the coolest guy or the nicest guy or the best guy out there, but he was there for her when she needed him in season one. And he comments that it could have been anyone who stumbled across l in the woods, but arguably would anyone have helped her the way he did? Maybe not. So maybe we need to give him more credit.

Caroline:

Well,

Anne:

I wonder if he is truly the heart.

Caroline:

well, yeah, and I do think, and I know a lot of this is probably for the plot, there were a lot of cues that things were not going great for El and there were also a ton of cues about will dealing with things that it just seemed like he was oblivious to because Maybe he was just too self-involved or, just for the plot to continue to have that tension. But like, either way it just made him seem very, Self-centered. Like he's not even aware of how people around him are doing.

Anne:

And we can blame being a teenage boy for that But at the same time, Lucas is a teenage boy and he is very insightful and noticing that Max needs help.

Caroline:

yeah. And Dustin is a teenage boy and he's sang never ending story in front of everyone, you know, like,

Anne:

It doesn't have to be like that. yeah. Will says that Mike is the heart who holds the party together. Questionable.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

let's talk about will. Poor will.

Caroline:

Yeah. poor will

Anne:

will needs some kindness to be the main part of a pair and not the third wheel at some point in his life.

Caroline:

the one positive thing about Jonathan is that he's a supportive good brother. But, that's kind of it. I,

Anne:

Well you see will like light up. He's so desperate for affection, connection. Like when Mike is actually nice to him. It's like Bing or when Jonathan reaches out when they're mixing up the salt bath. So I am worried about him next season because I, I think it's quite obvious that will, is struggling to come out and for some reason loves Mike. I guess he's just the boy. He knows the best, but you know, the pick of Alan Turing as his hero was quite a

Caroline:

mm-hmm.

Anne:

him holding that poster. So I'm hoping that Mike can accept him the way Steve has accepted Robin. I was very relieved that that painting was not like a portrait of Will.

Caroline:

So that's what I thought it was gonna be as well.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

a portrait of Mike?

Anne:

Sorry. Yeah. Did I say will a portrait of

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I'm worried about him next season he's clearly still got something in him, some connection to the mind failure, the upside down. Vena and Creel describes Henry as sensitive, which is the same way that Joyce described Will in season one. Henry also likes to draw, will, likes to draw, and He's going through some shit. So there's, he's got that sense of shame and isolation that makes him vulnerable Vena. Anything else about Will.

Caroline:

No, not really.

Anne:

Well Lucas, we mentioned that Lucas is aware boy do I love Lucas in this season.

Caroline:

Yeah, I mean, I go from hating him to loving him.'cause when he like rats on Eddie, I was very angry

Anne:

yeah. but does he really rat on Eddie? Wasn't it a fake out? Didn't he bring him to Hopper's cabin?

Caroline:

eventually. But there is like an initial rat out that He then covers for which is good,

Anne:

I was very worried that he was gonna go to the dark

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

because he obviously wants to be popular. He is tired of being a freak, a word the basketball guys use incessantly, so I was very relieved that he abandons Jason and that band of vigilantes pretty quickly. But he also obviously puts a target on his back, which comes back in a big way when Jason turns up in the final episode at the Creel house. Did you rewatch from the beginning

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

rewatch season

Caroline:

I only re-watched season four?

Anne:

I, I really start to love him in season three. There's this scene before the snowball dance where he is practicing asking Max to dance with

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

and it is just adorable. I just, you know, I love him and Max, like where we see them in season three, when life is simpler and they're goofy together. Like teasing Dustin with the never ending story song and sharing that first kiss. so hard to see them separate it and the way we can see that he loves her. He's yearning and trying to help her and she's just closed off to him.

Caroline:

Did you note what he was reading her in the hospital?

Anne:

The

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

which I read when season four came out last time, inspired by this not my favorite.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

It's, it's a little too fantasy for me when I prefer Stephen King's horror stuff. But yeah, there's a ton of parallels. I think, what is it called? The territories in the Talisman are very, it's very similar

Caroline:

Hmm,

Anne:

to the upside down.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

What do you think is under Lucas's bed?

Caroline:

I mean, Playboys, I,

Anne:

Yeah. love when Erica's like, it's so gross. It's like, what did she say? A 100 or a thousand?

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

And he immediately spills his

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

he knows that Erica has won that battle. shall we talk about Max

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

The best scene I think of this season.

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

yeah, Sadie Sink does such a good job. she's so tough and closed off in season two as a defense mechanism. And then she's like fun and bulent when she's with, Elle in season three and they become friends. But then you see her really just suffering and the effect of her trauma and guilt in season

Caroline:

Yeah, she does a great job, of being closed off in a way that's frustrating without being angering, Like, Jonathan feels closed off in a way that's angering. but she, it's almost like she has the same impression that Hopper does about being a curse and just not wanting to take anyone else down with her,

Anne:

Well, Yeah. she's very nihilistic when she kind of calls people on that platitude that it's all gonna turn out okay. She's like, that has never happened for me.

Caroline:

Yeah. I actually had that conversation with someone today. there was someone who is older than me that I spoke to, I knew professionally. I was on the phone and just talking about this time and like the age of our kids and stuff like that. And his kids are finishing college in 27, and he was like, oh, well this time is sort of tough, but at some point you're just gonna look back and like, it was all, everything is okay. And everything is gonna just work out. And I know it feels, it doesn't feel like it will. And I was just like, I don't have any reason to believe that. You know? Like, I don't, I don't, I, I'm glad that happened for you, But that wasn't my,

Anne:

happen for

Caroline:

right, that wasn't my parents' journey, you know, like, so I, I have no reason to believe that.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

people mean well when they say things like that, but like toxic positivity is still toxic. So maybe don't assume people are gonna vibe with that general message.

Anne:

In general, I think, yeah, those toxically positive platitudes don't really help. The intention behind it is usually good, And it's hard to know what to say in situations where things are bad, nobody knows how to react. Yeah. well, let's talk about that scene. Max's Escape from Vena. I, I honestly think it's one of the best scenes in any TV show of all time. I love it so much. I was blown away the first time I saw it and equally blown away again. when I re-watched it. I, I like how we first get her figuring it out after they break into the guidance officer's office. It's. So ominous when she notices that the other kids have had headaches, nightmares, nosebleeds, and past trauma. And then we hear Vena say, max,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

and it's like, oh fuck, because we know where this is going because of Chrissy's death.

Caroline:

I like that when she gets grabbed, she says, shit, that's not, I just feel like normally people are, going back to scream, they just scream or just like, you know, something more, I don't know, dainty or something, and she's just like, shit, you know, like, like, which is so much more realistic.

Anne:

Yeah. I love the juxtaposition of these two scenes, right? Like we've got her letter to Billy that she's reading out loud and it's gorgeously filmed, there's sunlight and she acts the shit out of it and it, it just really explores that nature of love, family hate, abuse, grief, mourning. What could have been like, they could have been a real brother and sister.

Caroline:

I. mean, but could they have, because he was such a nightmare, you know? But, I actually wrote down in one line of the letter, she says, I'm just going to stop assuming I know anything. as I've, lived my life and experienced things and whatever, I feel like that has been sort of the thing that keeps coming back to me is like I never understand something until I've experienced that thing. And even if I think I might, or even if I might empathize, I really don't know, you know? And I think I know things and then I'll live them, and it's like, I, I didn't know,

Anne:

and that changes

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I mean, could they have become, like, had Billy survived, suppose Billy had survived season three and they had this moment where they worked together and he maybe had a, know, a reckoning with who he was because of his near death. Yeah. I think they maybe could have moved on? but Had nothing happened to break him out of the path he was on? No. And you know, to give Billy credit, he saves their lives in season three. Okay. Spoiler alert for the shining skip ahead 30 seconds. But Jack Torrance and the Shining book breaks the hold the hotel has on him just long enough to give Danny time to run.

Caroline:

Mm,

Anne:

And Billy fights back long enough to give them time to fight back themselves.

Caroline:

there's something like that in Clone Wars too.

Anne:

haven't seen that

Caroline:

Mm

Anne:

And then I love the way when she finishes her letter, she lets out this like sigh of relief. Then it darkens. So good.

Caroline:

did you know as soon as Lucas started speaking that it, he was bena,

Anne:

Yeah. I mean, I think it took me bit like, maybe not instantly, but pretty quickly. Vena is so cruel

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

her as Billy in that first time he takes her and then to approach her as Lucas.

Caroline:

and her mother.

Anne:

Yeah. Her mother, oh, it's so mean. Yeah. Like he confronts that part of her that did hate Billy and wanted maybe had thought, oh, wouldn't my life be better if he were dead the part of her that wants to die

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

it's another one of those scenes they do so well where they're cutting back and forth between different things that are happening. So her experience and everyone trying to help her, and it's so tense. And just that song,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

there's this, I guess like melancholic desperation to it, which just really reflects her desperate escape and the sense of hopelessness and despair that she also has, like, she's escaping not just Vena, but despair. She's escaping her desire to it all, running toward the light, choosing life, an uphill climb, and that montage of happy moments. It's beautiful.

Caroline:

It is.

Anne:

So, yeah. one of my favorite scenes of all time. For

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I ever been so tense watching

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Maybe that scene in and or season two when they're in the square and there's that crackdown in the air. That's very tense

Caroline:

And, or is so good.

Anne:

and or so good. Maybe we should do like a little and or offshoot at some point.

Caroline:

Sure, why not? I would be happy.

Anne:

Yeah. And I love her moment of connection when she does escape with Lucas, because before he was like saying, I'm right here. I'm. right here. Like, begging her to open up to him and she doesn't, And then they get back and she's in his arms and she's like, I'm still here.

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

It's so good.

Caroline:

It is

Anne:

just beautiful too, the way it ends with, the ones who have been there helping her crouched around her in silhouette, like as the sun's setting.

Caroline:

Mm,

Anne:

Episode four. It's a banger.

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

okay. So since we've talked about Max's near death, talk about Chrissy

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

or Chrissy. She looks like Scarlet Johansson, don't you think? Yeah. So seeing Chrissy as Jason's girlfriend at the initial pep rally, I think we're kind of primed to hate her, right? Miss Perfect cheerleader. She could be an Angela, but she's not. She's sweet. And Eddie is so sweet to her, like the way he makes her laugh and she's so sad. And I love how they both think the other would be mean and scary, but just having one conversation can show you that people are more than you think. And poor Eddie. I'm traumatized from seeing Chrissy and Patrick die on tv. Imagine if you saw that in real life.

Caroline:

Oh, poor Eddie. Yeah. And he's so, I mean, my God, how lovable he is in that whole interaction in the woods, with her this reminded me of, at the time on TikTok, someone had made like a. pop version of Chrissy wake up. and it was really big around that time, and I, it reminded me of it, and it made me go back and give a good listen. And remember the days of peak TikTok when we were in our pandemic era and TikTok was so lovely. I don't like this

Anne:

I don't like this. Yeah. Oh, party. I mean, Chrissy's death at the end of episode one is when we realized this is not the stranger things of past seasons. It was shocking. the way it forces us to witness her broken bones and her limbs cracked at unnatural angle angles. It's just, it's ghastly. And I, I honestly forgot about how much those scenes bothered me, like made me physically nauseous. But it really establishes the stakes so that when we get to that max scene, know this bad guy's not messing around. She is in danger.

Caroline:

and you just follow her and she's so worried, she's just like, can you give me anything that just like, makes me forget reality and I can relate.

Anne:

and her reality, aside from Vena, is obviously very tough because Vena is exploiting her vulnerabilities. and for her, that's her body shaming mother who's her dress out and causing this bulimia that I think her dad is turning a blind eye to because of the way his and mouth are stone

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And yeah, this is the moment we see Vena for the first time too, when he kind of like slowly and relentlessly down the stairs and she's realizing she's trapped very scary. And Freddie and Patrick get the same treatment. We've got Freddy's deepest fears that he's a murderer because he was involved in a car accident, which was reminiscent of Riley in midnight

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And then Patrick's father is abusive and he feels like he's a disappointment.

Caroline:

there must be so many other people with these same level of problems, and did he pick these people because he, and this is part of the thing, like I was saying before about Scream or some of these other movies where things have to happen in a certain sequence for the master plan to be realized. And so when he has the people who die in the four Corners, and so they split the town in the right way, it's like, did he pick these people because he knew, like, how did he know Chrissy was gonna end up in Eddie's trailer? Or like some of these other locations? do you think he was casting a wide net and there were all these other people he had in his sights, but they weren't in the right place at the right time, so he abandoned them, you know?

Anne:

I think that, I think he's scanning you see him scanning at one point and there's all these people he kind of passes by.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

So I think he probably has a lot of people in his sites and you know? maybe he's trying to, you know, because Eddie was there when Chrissy was killed. it a coincidence that Eddie is there to witness Patrick as well? Because it's in Dena's best interest for the police to believe this is a human and not a monster?

Caroline:

But do you think they would even ever believe it was a monster? Like I feel like,

Anne:

probably not, but I mean, Jason's willing to believe. Eddie has, demonic powers that it's not just murder cause he's seen that thing happen. Eddie, as you said, Eddie is so charismatic and charming from the get go. I love when we see him kind of like revved up. and stalking across that table at lunch, talking about the conformity monster. Just side note that I wanna point out is that I think that Guillermo from what we do in the shadows would be, you know, scoping out virgins at the Hellfire Club sessions.

Caroline:

definitely, definitely. Where was the thing he went to, where they were? Was that not Dungeons and Dragons? That he, he went to something.

Anne:

I think it was like a, like

Caroline:

cosplaying.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

yeah, yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. Similar vibes. Yeah. Now I also love that Eddie's like a mother hen to Mike and Dustin and the way they look at him with such admiration when he's in the school cafeteria.

Caroline:

It just made me so sad when he was like, this is gonna be my year.

Anne:

I know. Oh, at the end when he dies. Oh, it's, it's brutal. My favorite, one of my favorite, many favorite Eddie scenes, but one of my favorites is just his delight. d and d campaign, the way he accepts Erica when she stands up to him, and it's that scene where they're flashing back and forth between the basketball game and Dungeons and Dragons. And when he holds his arms out to say like, and this is why we play and this is why we're here. It's like so which is not something we typically associate with something like Dungeons and Dragons. So

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

in terms of writing, have you ever heard of Save the Cat? So it's this like beat sheet for writers, and once you are aware of these plot points, you'll see it in every TV show, every book, every movie, It's like when you have a character and you see them do something nice early on, like even if they're a villain, you'll see something good about them that you give your character a Save the Cat moment. And we see that with Eddie being nice to Chrissy, right? That's his Save the Cat moment. But another thing that you see in Save the Cat is that a side character early on states the theme, and Eddie tells us early on, it's okay to run. Right. And he also talks about conformity. So those are several of the themes. And the fact that Eddie told us to run given his outcome, given Max's outcome, they have listened, should they have run? And I guess that's something that will be explored in season five. would it have been better to listen to Dr. Brenner I don't know.

Caroline:

Yeah. But you know, and then he's so proud of himself that he didn't run when it came down to it. and I can relate because I've often wondered what would I do? Would I like stay to save someone or would I save myself? I know what I'd hope I'd do, but I don't know, you know, we never know until we're in that position. I've given up. Assuming I know anything.

Anne:

Yes. Good point. Eddie's character arc is, as you say, that he doesn't run. He ultimately stands his ground and fights and dies. And was very metal. We've got a guitar on the wall and the way he dedicates that final song to Chrissy and tells Steve to make him pay, it's so good.

Caroline:

Yeah. I, I also like how he was like bad news first in always I, because that's me. I also, you know, same.

Anne:

Just tell

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

having said that, he could have been smarter About standing his ground, have your back to a wall at least, right? Like it, it made for a cool scene with all the bats swirling around him. But I feel like he could have survived. But then had he survived, still the scapegoat, he's still the number one suspect.

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

he gotten out, he would be in jail.

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

Which brings me hope that just, maybe just maybe Dustin has him stashed away somewhere, to quote Lloyd and Dumb and Dumber. So you're telling me there's a chance.

Caroline:

if I can be permitted to present this option at the moment, well actually let's get to it. When we get to it, when we get to hopes and dreams.

Anne:

Okay. yeah. And if you listen to last week's episode on the Cecil Hotel, Eddie is like Pablo slash Morbid. His treatment represents the dangers of the mob and vigilante justice and the way people can be classified as a freak by the Jasons of the world who can be dangerous. talk about Jason?

Caroline:

Yes.

Anne:

What do you think about Jason?

Caroline:

one thing I thought was interesting is whenever you look up like season four stranger thing, cast members, he doesn't come up in a list of the main people in almost anything I read. and I felt like that was quite shocking because he's pretty central to the theme and he's excellent. The actor is excellent. you watch him, slowly becoming more like, obsessed you know, clearly he's not sleeping, his eyes are getting blood, like he's becoming more unhinged as it goes on, and he does that so well. It's like a nice little slide down into this obsession with getting vengeance for Chrissy. I also think he demonstrates a very important. Large representation of people who are going to dig their heels in with their sense of reality. Chrissy would never buy drugs or whatever. and just like clinging onto how they understand the world, no matter what other evidence there might be or no matter what anyone else might say. And then furthermore, when he is up there preaching at the, like police meeting or whatever, which was such a bad idea, but when he was up there preaching there, and nobody's like, who's this fucking teenager? But he's talking with such conviction and such passion and with such certainty about something that he's actually totally wrong about, but he's sure he's right. at that is like really scary,

Anne:

And real. right?

Caroline:

Yeah. Well that's why it's scary, you know, like, cause people, people do that. It's very reminiscent of the reasons why, I am skeptical of organized religion environments, how can you talk with such conviction about something you have no actual proof of except for what you've decided must be so,

Anne:

And we see who support certain politicians digging their heels in the way you say, Boy can make a persuasive

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

He quotes scripture. also, shout out to, parks and Rec Leslie always loses the crowd too. I think what's also interesting about Jason, you know, he's this Kendall, future evangelist preacher, also like Olympic swimmer catching up with, Eddie in the boat. But he is the hero of his story, He thinks he's fighting evil and saving people. And as far as he knows, Eddie is a Satan worshiping cult leader who's the last person seen with his girlfriend, found horrifically, mangled and murdered in Eddie's trailer. So it makes sense. He would think it's Eddie. And this is why vigilante justice is such a problem, and as you said, like the digging of the heels, he sees Patrick get lifted up into the air and murdered in a way that is clearly supernatural. But he still manages to that evidence that it couldn't be Eddie and still blame him. Like so he takes all this evidence, but comes to the wrong conclusion.

Caroline:

he takes the evidence, he feels like taking, because he sees the shirts that say Hellfire Club, I guarantee you, he didn't look up a single thing about Dungeons and Dragons and find out what, like a nerd exploration it is. Like it's not, there's nothing satanic about it at all,

Anne:

Yeah. They're fighting the bad

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

in Dungeons and Dragons,

Caroline:

it. is a mythical quest of nerds, who are doing awesome mythical quest things that have nothing to do with murder,

Anne:

But they, it was caught up in the Satanic panic.

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

I listened to a, you're wrong about that. Talks about

Caroline:

yeah, it's so frustrating. I also was annoyed when he did his speech at the very beginning. My first note about him is like, are we not gonna name Drop Barb? Because she also was a pretty tragic loss for this school. very recently. Justice for Barb.

Anne:

Justice for Parm. We talked about old casting a few weeks ago on our Scream episode and he's 27 years old,

Caroline:

Uh,

Anne:

we know. Yeah.

Caroline:

he looks like Billy Bush.

Anne:

I see Brad Pitt, the way he talks his cadence reminds me of Brad Pitt with like a dash of Glen Powell from Top Gun

Caroline:

Oh yeah. He's too like clean cut, I think for Brad Pitt.

Anne:

it's more the way he

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

Jason's defense, he does really seem to love Chrissy, even though I think he loves an image of her because she obviously wasn't comfortable opening up to him about what was going

Caroline:

absolutely. Yeah, I had the same thought.

Anne:

he's genuinely dismayed by Patrick's death, Like he's found cradling Patrick's dead body, which is definitely a reference to Sleepaway Camp, if you've ever seen that, a horror movie from the eighties.

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

And it also parallels Lucas's cradling

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

the very end.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I feel like we've talked about most of the kids, except Erica. Uh, I love the way Erica is part of the gang, lady Applejack and d and d, she's knifing cop car tires and standing up to Jason and I love her moment with Lucas when she's admits that she loves her brother despite all the shit they give each other.

Caroline:

Did we talk about Elle? Really? I love her diorama.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Can we just give one more minute to another villain child, which was Angela.

Anne:

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Caroline:

this was next level. I mean, it sounds so stupid to talk about what's realistic or not realistic, but like of course bullies occur and of course bullies do bully shit, but getting a DJ at the ruler rink to have everyone there, it was very, very extreme, totally unnecessary. I just felt like, it was. A bit much, it could have done with more of the like Heather Chandler treatment, to be a little bit more realistic.

Anne:

it's, carry level, diabolical.

Caroline:

yeah, even back to when she's like, um, wasn't the assignment a real hero? And you know, like, make the statement once and then move on. You've already humiliated her. That's what a normal bully would do,

Anne:

Well, bullying is repetitive. It's repeated. That's of the definition. But it does escalate massively from when she's clarifying the oral presentation sweetly in class. But then when she finally says, like, cry to your daddy, oh, wait, you can't do that either. it is rotten. But Angela, fuck around and find out. she's lucky that all she got was escape to the face.

Caroline:

I agree. I agree.

Anne:

It's very, they're all gonna laugh at you from Carrie. And she blasted her. If Elle had had her powers, Angela would not have been walking away from that

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

is wrong, but had it coming. And empathy and being a good person aside, that's why you don't bully people, right?

Caroline:

for real.

Anne:

you don't know who you're dealing with and what they're capable of. If you're the perpetrator, humiliating and tormenting and belittling someone.

Caroline:

furthermore, like to the whole hurt people, hurt people. You could be belittling and tormenting someone who then grows up to become a murderer because of the trauma you caused. Even if you are not the one suffering the consequences, you destroy lives with that shit,

Anne:

Don't, bully.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

Don't be a bully. also pretty angry at that teacher for making. Elle continue with her presentation when she's clearly crying. Like that's

Caroline:

Well, and I feel like the teacher let Angela speak too much. there's no way a teacher who had control of their classroom would allow for it to have gone on as long as it did,

Anne:

Poor Elle. Those, those early episodes when she's getting bullied and lying about it are

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

hard to watch because despite one of the major, tenets of their relationship is friends don't lie. And then She goes She goes real big with that lie by actually pretending that these people are her friends.

Caroline:

I know. Just make up other names.

Anne:

Yeah. Just say they're away. are away.

Caroline:

Well, it only happens because Angela introduces herself and Mike's like, oh, you're a friend. Just make up other names of friends that aren't people you're gonna run into. Lie, better

Anne:

Friends don't lie. Friends

Caroline:

friends lie better.

Anne:

Yeah. I do like the detail in those early episodes, when we see her handwriting on her letter to Mike and it's so childish and I think it just is important to remember that she has missed all of primary school. This is the first time she's ever actually in school and, you think about kids who like grow up in refugee camps and then they insert it into a mainstream school and the skills they've learned. survive and cope in that situation, no longer apply. And it's a huge adjustment. And I think that kind of reflects Elle's experience. Like she grew up in a lab,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

is not to a nurturing parent, but to papa. And it was cutthroat and competitive, and children were pitted against each other. And now she's suddenly in high school and she's expected to be normal and she doesn't even readily knows how to read well, since we're on l I think one of the most heartbreaking moments is when she wakes up with her head shaved because that hair growth kind of symbolized normalcy. then it's so heartbreaking when it's gone and she's back with Dr. Brenner, but at the same time, she wants those powers back.

Caroline:

Which, speaking of getting the powers back, that's another Star Wars moment when she lifts Nina, like Luke with the X-Wing. Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So Elle's main conflict is whether, her mystery is, is she the monster or is she the superhero? And who is she? If she's not the superhero, can she just be a normal person? And I never really thought Elle was the monster, but I was relieved to find out although her actions led to the massacre, she wasn't the perpetrator.

Caroline:

Yeah. I do remember being kind of shocked when the season started being like, oh my God, wait, is she a baddie? I was worried, but I should have known better.

Anne:

We should have known Trust El. Well, let's talk about Dr. Brenner. He's papa. Dr. Frankenstein the true monster.

Caroline:

Yeah. Why do you think he had them call him Papa?

Anne:

I think it's just a manipulation technique,

Caroline:

Mm

Anne:

it's behaviorism rewarding his lab rats with candy and time in the rainbow room punishing them with electricity. And, you know, I think just attachment theory that he's all they have, So they fight for that attention.

Caroline:

It's so creepy.

Anne:

It's so creepy the way he holds their hands. It's, it's a big cult leader, like,

Caroline:

yeah, because he, he brands them,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Niom style.

Anne:

They all seek his approval because, what else do they have, how he survived the demagogue attack in season one? I suppose it doesn't really matter, but I'm I'm happy he's back because his presence is chilling.

Caroline:

It is very much Somehow. the emperor survived.

Anne:

Yeah. one thing I, I don't understand is wondering if like Henry Creel Brenner somehow recognized that Elle was special in those early episodes, or she just won of many and she ended up being the only one left. Like, she obviously is special because she's the only one that can fight back against Henry slash Vena slash one, she doesn't seem particularly special until she beats two in that telekinetic jeweling scene.

Caroline:

I actually had a note. Do you think that, Henry slash one slash CCNA picked her because he thought she was weak or because he thought she was strong,

Anne:

He

Caroline:

you know, to manipulate?

Anne:

I think

Caroline:

Yeah, because I,

Anne:

him who is setting up the bullying.

Caroline:

I agree. I feel like he assumed she was weak and trustworthy, and then he could easily like bulldoze the situation.

Anne:

But then if that's the case, once she removed the chip, didn't he just kill her? He goes upstairs and kills everybody else and he leaves her it does seem like he wants to keep her around for some reason. So that makes me think he does recognize that there's something special about her.

Caroline:

I know you're not a fan of the newer Star Wars movies, but there's an element of that in their relationship that reminds me of Ray and Kyler run.

Anne:

I don't mind those aspects. It's just some of the other stuff. just back to Brenner for a bit. He says things like when he is trying to convince El to work with him again, that all I've ever wanted to do is help you and he does seem to have some affection for her. What do you think about that? Do you think he loves her in any way?

Caroline:

My first thought was, okay, boomer,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

you know, it's, uh, very, like, I did this for you. I didn't benefit from it at all. You know, like

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

when it, the all evidence to the contrary,

Anne:

yeah. All he is ever wanted to do is use her, I think.

Caroline:

I agree. I mean, I, I think that maybe like Thanos, he thinks he loves her,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

But he's not actually capable.

Anne:

He does say at one point, and I think he's talking about her, maybe, I'm not sure who he's talking about, but he says, people are not so easily defined, and I think he's talking about himself there, he's sadistic. was gonna enslave her, basically with that electric collar to make sure that she did things the way he wanted to do them. but it's also his dying act to save her.

Caroline:

Hmm

Anne:

Which again reminds me of Carrie, because you know, when your abuser is all you have, there can still be a part of you that loves

Caroline:

mm-hmm.

Anne:

you know? And without him, wouldn't be a superhero,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

She owes that to him. But without him, she wouldn't need to be a superhero because no gate would've ever been opened because she wouldn't have had the power to disintegrate Henry and send him to the upside down. She'd just be a normal girl, living a normal life with her mom. Terry Ives, should we deep dive on Henry Orderly, one, vena, whatever. What do we wanna call this guy?

Caroline:

we could just call him one, I guess, maybe.

Anne:

Yeah, like I've been calling him Vena more,

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

even though to himself, he was never known that way.

Caroline:

Right?

Anne:

only know him as Vena. Right. okay. As we've talked about, he Uses his power to seek out the vulnerable and murder them horrifically. He's like a telepathic serial killer. I think I talked about this in our Cecil Hotel episode, this horror trope that we see this kind of push and pull between mental ill illness and susceptibility to possession like we see it in like the Babadook or the haunting of Hill House. And I think we see that with infiltration of his victims' minds. He's a metaphor for depression and shame the way he attacks your greatest fear. What do you think is his true motivation?

Caroline:

Well, I was just gonna ask like, why does he need them? Are they like whore cruxes? Like, I don't, I don't, I'm,

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

I don't really understand what he's doing with them, how they serve him, in a way that isn't ucks adjacent. I also just like, why do all these villains not have noses? I don't, you know, like, I don't, some of these tropes are

Anne:

it burns off quickly. I mean, I guess some of his motivation is revenge, right? getting vengeance on Elf or banishing him to the upside down. he's sociopathic, because he's like this as a kid,

Caroline:

right?

Anne:

wasn't experimented on by Brenner the way everybody else was. They're like an MK Ultra result. he claims that he's wanting to end the falseness to help people escape their misery, waiting around to die. He says, we're performing in a silly, terrible play. Once again, Macbeth loves put a walking shadow.

Caroline:

Hmm. Drink,

Anne:

I referenced the same quote and scream, oh, at one point, uh, Al looks at bloody hands. That's very lady Macbeth as well. Okay, stop.

Caroline:

drink again.

Anne:

Uh, I think he's also gaining power with every kill, you know? So maybe that's why he goes and kills all the other lab kids to take what they had.

Caroline:

I, I feel like I just need to understand better how the upside down works, which I don't, which I, I did make a concerted effort to learn dungeons and dragons. I do feel like given all the other nerdy shit I enjoy, I probably would, but I didn't get past, like picking what type of person I'd be, which I've already forgotten, anyway. I, yeah, because when you said like his motivation is revenge, it's like wells motivation keeps shifting, but it's always, he always has like a reason to be mad. at something or someone and just the target of it changes. But I don't really know that I I understand his motivation other than like, I want, I do,

Anne:

Maybe he is just a sociopath

Caroline:

I, yeah,

Anne:

sociopathy is, made worse by becoming Brenner's lab rat. And I would think Brenner keeps him around, right? If he thinks he's so dangerous and he electrocutes him because he's obviously, you know, doing things he doesn't want him to do with el, he's creating a pretty powerful adversary for himself.

Caroline:

this was very lazy, parenting. like, if you're gonna have someone dangerous like that about, you can't give him unfettered access to the children,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

with a collar on, because clearly he can do this, you know, he can manipulate.

Anne:

He can talk. Yeah,

Caroline:

I don't know if I'm having like Pharaoh eyes, but he also looks like Ronan Pharaoh, I think.

Anne:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I see it. I mean, he's like a creepier Ron and

Caroline:

Sure.

Anne:

very twin Peaks, one flew over the cuckoo's nest, very intense eyes. Ron and Farrow has like smaller, sexy bedroom eyes.

Caroline:

Ronan Farrow seems warmer, I'll say.

Anne:

Yes. Well, the mare at the lab is pretty tough, to see the aftermath of,

Caroline:

Oh my God. When he tilts his head and it breaks that kid's neck, oh, it was the creepiest that stuck with me.

Anne:

Yeah. And we see Elle do that in earlier seasons, so she learned from

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

always that could the one be corrupted? Which, you know, is the good versus evil and Star Wars thing, could she go in his direction, she's capable of similar violence and she's shown that in the past.

Caroline:

Sure she could

Anne:

Yeah. so I guess the other motivation is that he is trying to open up these gates, and this is just how he can do it. it's the release of emotion that creates gates, she creates the first gate. him with the anger and power she exerts then fear when she first encounters the dagor. But so Vena is doing this murder by psychic connection and maybe it's the pleasure he feels, the emotions his victim's release, their fear channeled through him that is opening up the gates. And obviously his main goal is to just open up the upside down completely.

Caroline:

to do what though? Killmore.

Anne:

What does any bad guy wanna do?

Caroline:

Some of them are motivated by power, some of them, like a sexual motivation, you know, like, I'm not sure I know what his motivation is.

Anne:

maybe it is. just to destroy, to people out of the misery of living And waiting around to die. That's what he says.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

And uh, that's a hard motivation to fight back against.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Thanos, what thinks every that we're a pestilence

Caroline:

Well, Thanos has a very clearly stated goal. There's a resource issue, and if there were fewer people, there would be enough resources. The Emperor's motivation is power, He just wants to control everything. I don't know what one wants,

Anne:

maybe it's just death and destruction. Some people

Caroline:

Yeah, like the Joker, right? Yeah. He could be like the Joker, I guess. well, I mean, the Joker is methodical as well in his chaos, so I don't know. Yeah.

Anne:

Well, we haven't talked about Murray, Joyce, and Hopper at all.

Caroline:

Oh my God, I love Murray so much.

Anne:

he's parts smug, lovable and obnoxious and endearing. Right.

Caroline:

Totally. I, he is also at Attract All, all so many of these men are just like so attractive in a completely non-toxic way. It's beautiful to see. I You don't get a lot of this in media.

Anne:

Did you enjoy seeing him so close to naked in that first episode?

Caroline:

No, no, no, no. Yeah. No, no. I did enjoy watching him, karate chop on the airplane and stuff like that. I loved all of his karate.

Anne:

My fingers are like

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

arms are like iron.

Caroline:

amazing. He's hilarious. I loved him. He's got a great like dad vibe to him too. When they're like, yeah, I have to go to Alaska for work to meet with Joan and Brian Britannica.

Anne:

And Joyce like has no idea what's going on with Jonathan and he's like, I know she somehow is missing that Jonathan is totally baked. He's scathing about kids. I like when he tells Joyce, you know, your kids tend to get involved. Despite the fact that he's scathing with kids, he takes karate class with kids, which is funny.

Caroline:

Light Kramer.

Anne:

he beat Jeremiah once. Right.

Caroline:

His Russian is so good. I love all of his, the whole mix with Yuri being the prisoner and stuff like that. It's so good.

Anne:

know, there's a, some parts of this rescue, I have some criticism of just, you know, things like how does the plane crash land within spitting distance of this prison things like that. But I don't really care. Right.'cause it's fun. I I did think the whole Russia storyline went on too long

Caroline:

I agree.

Anne:

fact that they go back to the prison twice, hopper has his initial escape attempt and he kind of cuddles up with his peanut butter in a blanket and then gets brought back to the prison and then they escape again and they go back to the prison. I was kind of like, I want to not be in this prison anymore. But I do think ending is epic enough that it's kind of worth it. I love the, collaboration of Marie and Joyce.

Caroline:

I do too.

Anne:

They're so cute. Have you seen that video of her it's an award ceremony and David Harper's giving a speech and her expressions as she's listening

Caroline:

Oh yeah.

Anne:

bonkers. And you see a little bit of that in, you know, when she and Murray are like threatening to leave Yuri behind. And she's like, duh.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

so fun to watch. I I love her. Yeah. She plays it all a little unhinged, Always gets fixated.

Caroline:

it's awesome.

Anne:

I was mad at her in season three when she stands up Hopper for their date at Enzos. But she's so fixated on the magnets that she can't even be like, I'm sorry.

Caroline:

yeah. My only really note about her was just the great chemistry she has with Hopper and the great chemistry she has with Murray in a totally different way. All of that was great.

Anne:

I was gonna say it's another unambiguous sign of true love as these cynical eyes have

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

she goes after Hopper.'cause that's no big

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Like she's brave and tough. she's a hell of a lot calmer than I'd be knowing I'm about to be handed over to the KGB.

Caroline:

Seriously. And she's got kids to think about, It is a lot, but I, Yeah. I think she, you know, speaking of brave and badass, like Joyce

Anne:

They've got great chemistry too. it's so when they hug and like he sees her there and he realizes she's come for her. But then when they're in the church and they're really shy around

Caroline:

mm-hmm.

Anne:

it's, and, and they're having that conversation about how he's fantasizing about dinner at Enzos. And then he starts talking about the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

she's like a little offended. So cute.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Well, let's talk about Hopper. We quote Hopper regularly. mornings are for coffee and contemplation. My husband has been saying this for years. Whenever the kids make demands on him first thing in the morning. Do you have a crush on Hopper?

Caroline:

Yeah. of course. Yep.

Anne:

Yeah. Gimme Hopper any season.

Caroline:

I, I also appreciate him and his, Marvel character from, black Widow and, Thunderbirds. Like

Anne:

I haven't seen

Caroline:

David Harbor's really good in that as well. I think he's great. I really love him.

Anne:

we just wanna point out that we are talking about Hopper, the character, not David Harbor. Recently some news has come out about him, particularly regarding his relationship with Millie Bobby Brown. We don't have the details on that, but it, it kind of looks like David Harbor is not a good person. So that's not who we're talking about. We're talking about Hopper.

Caroline:

The character Hopper and the character in Thunderbirds, whose character name I've forgotten, but he is, black widow's dad,

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

in that movie.

Anne:

He plays dad's well, doesn't he?

Caroline:

Yes, he plays dads well.

Anne:

I do feel like his face looks a bit naked when they first shave off his mustache. Have you seen those videos of kids who see their

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

for the first

Caroline:

Yeah. and they cry? Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. I love his expressions of love and affection that he feels for the woman in his life, like the way he looks at El and Joyce with such warmth and those quiet moments when he's not destroying everything with his temper, is

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

a problem.

Caroline:

Yeah, I think it's beautiful. thought he was so like, cool when he first sees Elle he just like, lets her fall into him. I was like, that is so hot. You know, like, you know,

Anne:

I love when, they're reunited and like, your hair, your hair, like, I stole your look. It's so sweet.

Caroline:

I left it open three inches, she says.

Anne:

Oh, it's heartwarming. Yeah. it's a joy to find out Hoppers alive, even if it doesn't make sense, you know, that he would survive that explosion at the end of season three. Just like it doesn't make sense that Dr. Brenner survived the demagogue and attack in season one. But again, I don't care. One of his scariest moments, I think is getting tortured with that elephant mask thing. That was

Caroline:

Oh, yeah, that was rough. I, I liked, when he causes that fight to get the lighter and stuff like that. that was great.

Anne:

that was great because he thinks he's this black hole poison that he. Isn't cursed, he is the curse. So there's so much self-loathing and self blame and then he gets the lighter and you're like, oh no, no. He hasn't completely given up and that is nice.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

well let's talk about his escape. his near escape from the prison was great. though I hate that ankle bit, that was very hard for me to

Caroline:

Oh my God, that was rough.

Anne:

And then he is barefoot in the snow and I'm just like in pain thinking about it. Yeah. So we can really feel his unadulterated joy and relief when he licks up peanut butter off his fingers.

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

it to work out so bad. Fucking Yuri. Gut punch.

Caroline:

Fuck Yuri. man.

Anne:

let's talk about the demagogue and attack in the prison because that is a great scene and, and although I was upset that they are going back to the prison, that was awesome.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

The dagor in Russia is a very different dagor from Hawkins season one, which would just feed and hunt like a few days later when it was hungry. Whereas this one is like ripping people apart, ruthlessly one after another, not stopping to even eat. It's just carnage.

Caroline:

they couldn't really think they were being given a feast for like any other reason. I feel like it would've been obvious to me from the moment I walked in there while I was being fatten and fattened up.

Anne:

that is a very ominous scene. the way they go from like joy at this meal resolve that they can work together. And then Hopper just sucks the hope out of the room.

Caroline:

Like Quint.

Anne:

Like Quinn. And you know, he's, there's a lot of Jurassic Park stuff happening here. Like he's saying that it's a predator. It needs to hunter, it gets bored, which is kind of Like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park being fed a goat on a chain. And pretty boring. And I, you know, they are experimenting on these dema organs and demo dogs. Like, you see that one that kind of like, know, half autopsied and, you know, just wanna Dr. Ian Malcolm again, that, these scientists were so worried about whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. but the payoff is great. We get the joy of seeing Joyce and Hopper reunited Just continuing that theme about sacrifice and risk that characters are willing to take for. Love and friendship. besides the final showdown, were there any other great scenes that you wanted to talk about?

Caroline:

Yeah. Okay. So there were a lot of great Excellent executions of cinematic classics, I guess I would call it. So I had a couple of notes about like, the montage of trying to find people to play in place of Lucas, at the school it was very like Heather's lunchtime poll. it reminded me a lot of that. And then the hacking scene at Susie's h Susie, right. The girlfriend. That whole situation at that house in Utah with all the kids was very Goonies and Spielberg. There was a lot of like Spielberg music playing and hijinks ensue and then, yeah, the sequence of the, skateboarding to the dance, to these nightmares with the bloom bursting was very classic horror. that.

Anne:

very it.

Caroline:

Yeah. There was a lot of really well done. I guess montage feels cheesy to say, but sequences, Yeah,

Anne:

the way they cut, back and forth between scenes was just masterly done. another scene that I didn't mention is right after Steve is being attacked by the bats and then everybody turns up to save him. And I'm, I'm pretty sure again that's a one shot scene,

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

like the scene where the agents are protecting the kids in the house in California,

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

a scene I love is the flashlights in the mansion. I think it's in episode five they first figure out that moving with the light and they end up in the attic, which we know that other than the basement is the creepiest place in the house. And just that, yeah, you mentioned spielbergian aspects, that the lighting is very Spielberg and the way the music swells at the same time and then it kind of switches to the upside down to Vena, beneath them, linked into the hive

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And they do the same thing with the bikes at one point, the kids who are biking in our world. And then it flips to them biking in the upside down. So good. A scary scene is Max's mom doing

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And she's hugging her when she becomes vena. And that's very creepy. And I just think laundry lines in general are scary. Myers lurks behind sheets and Halloween. In the it mini series, there's a laundry scene and the conjuring a sheet takes shape. I often feel nervous hanging up towels and sheets because what could be lurking behind it?

Caroline:

Yeah, I used to love to reenact that scene in La Baba at the end. when Richie's mom, she's hanging the sheets when she hears it on the radio and she like throws the laundry. very dramatic

Anne:

Very dramatic. the final showdown, I think we've gotta discuss that scene. Best laid plans. They've got this great complex plan with signals using the light in the upside down and their world to slay Dracula in his coffin when he's vulnerable, hooked up into the hive mind using Max's bait. Good plan all goes to hell.

Caroline:

because of fucking Jason and the the mob.

Anne:

And that asshole basketball player that almost breaks Erica's What a bully. Another cutting back and forth because we've got max and L in her mind at the snowball, which is also one of my favorite Stranger Things, memories like I love when Nancy dances with

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

That in at the end of season two. It's, it just makes me cry. It's so sweet. So they're all playing their part. We've got Hopper and Joyce and Marie fighting the Dagor Marie with the Flame thrower. We've got Lucas with Max in the attic. Jonathan Will and Mike helping Al Mike, telling her he loves her. Dustin and Eddie distracting the bats. And then Nancy, Robin and Steve are supposed to be the ones essentially with the stake, but get, picked off pretty quickly and, taken outta the equation by being stuck to the wall with the vines. What did you think about the Sword Hopper taking down the demagogue with the sword?

Caroline:

Pretty badass.

Anne:

He was badass.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Eddie at the same time, is fighting off bats with a shield. So both of these feel very, you know, Lord of the Rings,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Dungeons and Dragons.

Anne:

So it really is such a great blend of fantasy sci-fi horror action, like the helicopter scene, it's pure

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

it's very triumphant when she hears Mike say, I love you, and then is able to get the vines off her and blast Vena back. And then when Nancy is hitting Vena with the shotgun and he's on fire and it's, it's great, but at the same time, it's so awful.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I didn't remember that. max died. Like I blocked that out, I think.

Caroline:

I mean, her heart stops for a minute, he says,

Anne:

I didn't remember that he broke her bums that. It got that far. I must have been so traumatized when I first watched season four that I just forgot and it was just shocking to me to be like, what? Like he gets her.

Caroline:

I remember that. She's in a coma at the end, but I, I don't know if I remembered that her bones were broken. That might have surprised me as well

Anne:

Brutal. I was not sad to See Jason go, especially after he stepped on the Walkman. That was hard to watch.

Caroline:

Goodbye and good luck. Not, yeah, not gonna miss you

Anne:

Stephen King to have a human show up and exacerbate the horror being caused by the monster or the supernatural force. Because yes, often people are the scariest things. so yeah, goes on to fight another day. He's hurt, but alive. And the barrier between Hawkins, our world and the upside down has fallen by the end of this scene. What do you want to happen next? What are your hopes, dreams? Predictions. Thoughts? Prayers.

Caroline:

Well, I'm not gonna say that I hope this, but one thing that did occur to me was the whole, like when they get down there and the gun is not in Nancy's room because the date is wrong. I was like, oh, so is the upside down, like a time travel option situation, like other series? I don't necessarily wanna spoil, but I am always kind of disappointed when time travel is used as my husband also. I don't wanna steal his thing because definitely pointed out to me. But it does kind of feel lazy when it's like

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

time travel is used to solve a problem. but it did occur to me that maybe time travel could bring these people back,

Anne:

back.

Caroline:

bring whoever, bring all of them back, bring Barb back. I don't know, you It depends on the date.'cause it is hard to keep track of the years when it's like three years between seasons, but like one year in school, you know?

Anne:

As you said, I don't really want that to happen, but I, I do wonder if that's where they're going, because at the end of season three, they're watching back to the future.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

as you said, the upside down, stuck on a date in the past. There's Henry's fixation with clocks. Yeah. but yeah, I, I don't love time travel fixes everything as a plot line,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

but obviously I want Max to be

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I'm very nervous for her. my prediction is that she won't come back. if we learn anything from Stephen King novel novels in Pet Cemetery, you can't cheat death. Sometimes dead is better and is l attempting to cheat death when she says no and brings Max back, but she can't find her. So,

Caroline:

Well, I did, of course Google, if your heart stops for a minute, how bad is it? it's not necessarily that bad. it's more like when it's several minutes that your, your chances of survival decrease with every additional minute by 10%. it is likely she could, medically, but I don't know.

Anne:

And what condition will she be

Caroline:

Right. Brain damage begins to occur as soon as there's no oxygen to the brains.

Anne:

Well, Dustin's mother says in one of the early episodes, my heart can't take it. And that's kind of how I feel. If anyone dies in season five, I'm very nervous for actually losing people, that are part of the main crew, I hated losing Eddie, but he was brought in to die. I hated losing Bob.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Aston in season two, but same thing, like we only had him for a season, but then we've had these other characters for five seasons. I'm nervous about any of them. Like, don't kill Dustin. don't kill Steve.

Caroline:

Please don't kill Steve.

Anne:

I know Steve needs his caravan with six kids. I want Joyce and Hopper to have their dinner at Enzo's and officially get together.

Caroline:

Me too.

Anne:

I want Joyce to get a job as like a private investigator. Maybe she could work with Marie, where her outside the box thinking could be put to good use. Like she's so good at figuring stuff out. She's tough. She should be doing more than selling encyclopedias

Caroline:

yeah. She's fearless.

Anne:

Yeah. Do you think Hopper's daughter, Sarah could be alive?

Caroline:

That,

Anne:

Victor Creel told Henry was dead. eyes was told Jane was dead.

Caroline:

that never occurred to me. But he does, like, there's a shot you see of them being present when she dies.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

So I don't, I, yeah, I mean, I guess,

Anne:

Unlikely. yeah, And I'm just wondering who, who else is vulnerable to Vena? Not Erica. She's tough. And Vena be scared of

Caroline:

right?

Anne:

she would be like those, um, Norris jokes, like, you don't find Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris finds

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

just

Caroline:

Yeah. She'd be like, where's your nose? You know,

Anne:

yeah, she's so

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

But Lucas is obviously gonna be feeling a lot of guilt and shame. He couldn't save. Max Will's full of shame. Hopper thinks he's cursed, who's he gonna go after? Any other hopes and dreams?

Caroline:

I think I'm too afraid for hopes and dreams.

Anne:

Uh, questions.

Caroline:

Okay. So I have so many questions and I guess, could we like combine questions and criticism, I guess?'cause if the questions can't be answered, then I would call them criticism. in the beginning when the massacre happens at the hospital, why would you leave Dr. Brenner alive? You know, if they're alive or dead? Obviously, if you're one, so why did he leave him alive? I don't really understand. As you said, Steve being underwater for a long time. There's also elements of Nancy and Steve and Robin being strangled for a really long period of time. It felt like way too long. When max and L are dying, it feels incredibly long, more long than is realistic.

Anne:

I kind of feel like maybe the vines are just holding them in place until Vena's ready for them, so maybe not fully strangling them. And that's how they,, Steve and Robin and Nancy kind of lasted when they were pin into the wall.

Caroline:

I'll allow that. It didn't feel that way while watching it, but I'll

Anne:

Yeah, they look like they're getting strangled,

Caroline:

as an

Anne:

but

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

yeah. They extended it for the sake of the narrative, I guess.

Caroline:

Also how did they get back from the upside down when Eddie cut the rope?

Anne:

maybe somebody threw a new another rope. I dunno.

Caroline:

Okay. Alright. Another rope. That's good. That's fair. I

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

things have to happen for plot reasons. Can you answer for me, because you mentioned this earlier. Okay. So music saves because music accesses parts of the brain that are otherwise not usually accessed. but why, if music is used to like Fight Vena, did the radio switch on before his attack to play that song?

Anne:

Oh, like in the, in the Victor

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. Well, I guess maybe he just didn't understand yet, but Yeah. it seems like it switches on supernaturally as if it was His choice

Caroline:

His choice when it ends up being like the thing to defeat him. It seems like a,

Anne:

I don't

Caroline:

A weakness he would've recognized from the beginning if it was actually a weakness. and then my last one is so stupid, but it's like that scene when the guy dies and he's like, Nina and gives the pen or whatever and ar girl's trying to write the names that we talked about earlier, and then Mike is like, why would you give us a pen? That doesn't work. There must be something inside it. I was like, what? Like, I only have pens that don't work in my purse, you know,

Anne:

Definitely not the assumption I would

Caroline:

all

Anne:

but

Caroline:

time.

Anne:

especially not like, you know, Mike, who's really not paying attention

Caroline:

Right?

Anne:

come up with that idea. Robin could have come up with that idea. Nancy could have come up with that idea. Maybe not Mike.

Caroline:

I would even buy Argo being like, maybe it has some supernatural power and that triggers someone to be like, maybe there's something inside of it.

Anne:

Yeah, yeah, A bit of a, a rushed scene to get to that.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah, I mean, my question is, I don't understand the mirror time aspect of the upside down, why it stuck the day l opened the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

A lot of things, I just don't understand the upside down, like what's going on with the earthquakes. That's not something we've seen before, but maybe we just haven't had characters in there long enough before. Does Henry need to eat in the upside down? he still human, Right. Like,

Caroline:

Right. Because my husband was like, you know, he's so burned. How did he walk away? And I was like, well, maybe that's not really his body. Maybe he's projecting much like El projected her body. Maybe he's somewhere else. I also just don't understand the rules of the upside down.

Anne:

Other criticism, some of the escape stuff was a little too convenient even though the escape was impossible. Like the dynamite waiting in the shed, the snowmobile with the keys and the ignition. Let's see. Some of the CGI with mini 11 didn't feel quite right, like it reminds me of when Princess Leia shows up at the end of Rogue

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne:

but again, not, not a big deal. Ellen, Dr. Owens left, left the diner without having their club special on waffles. And this is my husband's biggest, this movie Pet Peeve when people order and Don't eat. And I'm just like, I would never order and not eat.

Caroline:

Seriously.

Anne:

Mine is when a romantic partner comes home late or has to leave early and they wake the other person up. That is my biggest movie. Pet peeve. Like, let people sleep.

Caroline:

Mine is, what were you gonna say? Oh, nothing. Okay. You know, like, like that has ever happened to anyone.

Anne:

Or when people are about to say something and someone else goes, shh and doesn't let them

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

because they think they know what they're gonna

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I think Nancy putting together Max's drawings of, Henry Creole's, kind of Freddie Krueger boiler room. Disconnected home was a bit silly. think sometimes they push a little too hard to get that figuring it out moment. But again, I, I don't really mind. It's still

Caroline:

Well, and I wrote down like, thank God this didn't happen to me because you could, you imagine what my drawings would've looked like? It would've been ridiculous. There's no way Nancy would've figured it out.

Anne:

She knows exactly where to fold. Right.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

one thing that I feel like is a little confusing is that, you know, obviously if you're in the upside down, you can hear people in our world, but not the other way around. Right. and if the upside down is stuck on the day will disappeared, he wouldn't have been able to see the letters that Joyce painted

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

So, I mean, I guess you can explain it that maybe Joyce explained it and he could hear it, but there is like a bit of a plot hole there. Okay. I think that's it

Caroline:

Oh,

Anne:

mean, I've got other questions, but we're getting a bit long here so

Caroline:

have one more thing. This is another pet peeve that happens in media. You cannot shake a magic eight ball like that and, and read what it says. Like, nobody,

Anne:

yeah, It'll be bubbly.

Caroline:

this happens on friends as well, and I'm like, don't do that. You'll never read what it says. It is very aggravating. Don't ever do that in media. Please. Media people who are listening.

Anne:

Okay. deeper horror, teachers, making kids read out loud in class. bullying, whether it's in the lab or in the classroom. And boy did they find some evil looking kids to play bullies in the lab.

Caroline:

Righteous indignation based on a fallacy.

Anne:

Yes, Jason. Autocratic Governments that can make people disappear, which doesn't feel so far away right

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

the way we can ignore problems until they swim up and bite you in the ass, right? Which is the jaws thing that ultimately the things that affect the minority will affect the majority. And in Hawkins, there's always been this simmering underbelly of danger that people have been able to ignore, but now it's spreading to harm who were able to ignore it. teenage depression, suicide anxiety, the shit teenagers go through that make them vulnerable to Vena. there's this poet. Anisa Manola, she's a Ugandan Australian potent comedian, and she has this poem called, I Know that I just wanna quote and she says, I know what it's like to be an ice sculpture in the middle of every room, teaching your anxiety to stand still so everyone else can keep moving, hoping no one realizes that you've been melting the whole time. And another line is depression is a stalker that knows where you live. And I feel like that really speaks to Vena stalking these teenagers and exploiting their vulnerabilities.

Caroline:

Hmm

Anne:

Uh, the allure of popularity, what people will do to attain it. That almost brought Lucas to the dark side, mob violence and hysteria. We need a system. We can't just have vigilante justice and Jason represents those dangers, which leads into moral panics, the Satanic panic, and uh, being gay at a time when it was not accepted, and which Robin and will both struggle with so hard.

Caroline:

Not that it is fully accepted today.

Anne:

No, it's not. The unwarranted adulation of athletes. there's a bit of Friday night lights going on here with the Hawkins basketball team. they're allowed to have their frat house in Benny's old diner, and there's a lot of times that athletes get away with criminal behavior, so that's a problem. Uh, the complexity of grief and trauma, Billy's an asshole, but he was still Max's stepbrother. He was family. Family can hurt you, but you can still love them. It's not black and white. Do you have any other deeper horrors you want to address?

Caroline:

No, no. I think we covered them. Yeah,

Anne:

All right. What about survival tips?

Caroline:

I was, I was really trying to think about this and it's so hard because the scenario is so different.

Anne:

Fantastical.

Caroline:

Yeah. Fantastical. I think it's, have a trusted person

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

and share with that trusted person.

Anne:

Be open.

Caroline:

with a really trustable person, you know, like you don't wanna just be open with anyone, but, it is important to not be alone.

Anne:

I have that. Hang on tight to your friends. Let them be there for you and be there for them. also don't cross the KGB

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

Marie says.

Caroline:

my mother was Hungarian in a, saying they have theirs. The walls are always listening.

Anne:

the walls have ears. I think they say that in sleeping beauty when they're trying not to let Maleficent

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I think that's all I have. do you have a palate cleanser after watching Poor Max get her arms broken and legs broken and her eyes popped.

Caroline:

Yeah. So quick palate cleanser, I don't know what you would call it actually, but when I was mentioning to my kids that I was gonna be recording tonight, my middle child said, do you like pal casting? And I said podcasting, but I think we should call it pal casting

Anne:

Yeah, You

Caroline:

we're pals.

Anne:

podcasting? Yes. Oh, that's so cute. that

Caroline:

yeah, they've never heard of an iPad, so, or iPod.

Anne:

Yeah. So pod

Caroline:

Yeah. They're like, what is a pod? It's.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

Do you like pal casting, casting with your pal? I do like casting with my pal. yeah, so my palate cleanser, so I haven't actually watched this yet'cause we went camping last, we actually, both of us went camping last weekend. So another thing, go touch grass or whatever. it's feels like winter here. It is summer there. But, my, pallet cleanser is, there is a great show called, nobody Wants This on Netflix. They had a season one that I watched in like two days. Season two came out this past weekend. I haven't gotten to watch it yet, it's a delightful romcom, with Seth Cohen. And what, what is his real name? Seth Cohen's real name, I forget. Uh, and Kristen Bell.

Anne:

Adam Adam. Not, not Adam Driver.

Caroline:

Adam, Seth Cohen. I was gonna say Adam Driver too, but it's definitely not,

Anne:

Is it? Adam

Caroline:

I think it's Adam Brody. Yeah. Whatever. Seth Cohen and Kristen Bell.

Anne:

what is our homework assignment?

Caroline:

so, inspired by crumbling vec Vena manner. As you called it, I wanted to, have us watch, it's not really actually a, a crime, but it is kind of a horror. It's a documentary called gray Gardens, The documentary about Jackie Oass, eccentric aunts who live on Long Island. It's pretty well known. From the seventies., The documentary about Jackie Oass, eccentric aunts who live on Long Island.

Anne:

so get watching. what recommendations do you have to go along with Stranger Things?

Caroline:

I mentioned Thunderbirds, which, hopper is in Har. David Harbor is in Thunderbirds, which is great. Eddie is also in Fantastic Four, the new Fantastic four movie, which is my six year old's favorite movie,

Anne:

He's also in a quiet place, day one, and is really sweet in that too.

Caroline:

Okay. So, see those, I was reminded of John List a bunch of times with this house and the Family massacre situation, so I feel like we've mentioned him before, but there's good, yeah. Podcasts and stuff like that about him. The Dungeons and Dragons movie is actually quite fun. so I wanna recommend that as well. That is kind of as far as I've gotten into, uh, with Dungeons and Dragons. I also, there was mention of a newspaper, the Weekly Watcher, I think they called it. And it gave me men in black vibes. Like this is where you get the real news from that scene from the beginning of Men in Black. And of course, there's a lot of scenes with like men in suits driving in and outta places. So I wanted to recommend Men in Black. they also mentioned Watergate, so I wanted to recommend Dick'cause I love that movie. It's very delightful. It's, it's a fun, funny movie. also one Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or Girl Interrupted for people who are living in these environments, I know I mentioned Heather, since we've been talking the new Star Wars movies, there's a lot of stuff in the, chapters 7, 8, 9, that I think are also associated with this, concept of good and evil balancing each other out, I wrote down The Exorcist, I can't remember why. I mean, I guess for the scenes of everyone seeming possessed. Yeah,

Anne:

floating.

Caroline:

yeah. People floating maybe. Yeah, that is a good call.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

yeah. And then also for bad guys who become good guys.'cause I, Paul Reisner's character, like not remembering.

Anne:

didn't talk

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Dr.

Caroline:

Yeah. And

Anne:

kind of skipped

Caroline:

yeah, well, I mean this is, we've been talking for hours, so, the Fast and Furious like franchise, which I know I've also mentioned as a snark watch, but like that series has a whole bunch of like, this guy's the villain, but then he is the good guy, but then he is the villain, but then he is the good guy. Oh, oh, also Papa Matthew Modine is in Weeds, which is a great show.

Anne:

Oh, I've never watched that. I, I remember my sister loved

Caroline:

Oh, you didn't? Oh, you would love it.

Anne:

missed it. for whatever reason. okay. Well, I recommend Octavia Butler's Parable, the Sower, which is a dystopian futuristic novel, where electric colors are used to control people and to terrifying effect. As we said, Lucas was reading Max The Talisman, written by Stephen King and Peter Strobe. So check that out. The territories are a parallel realm, very similar to the upside down, parallel realm Alice in Wonderland, the Wizard of Oz and PII is a novel which has a newer take on this theme that I really enjoyed as well. because Eddie briefly wears a Michael Myers mask. And the way Vena is just gone after they burn him up is very Michael Myers, the Ring, because Max, figuring out how much time she had left reminded me of seven days. you know, seven days that curse that cannot be stopped, obviously just all the movies they reference, the never ending story. Silence of the Lambs Nightmare on Elm Street, early Spielberg stuff, et Jurassic Park, Stephen King Carey, obviously the body. It because the 30 year gap between the Creole murders and Vena reminded me of it. There's a podcast called Guide to the Unknown that's really good about the stranger things in our world. Go back to ghosts in the burbs are, I think it was episode three or four, about the darkness hidden beneath the surface in suburbia. The Bunker silo scenes me of the movie 10 Cloverfield Lane, which was really good. for more literary pick, you could go classic, the Crucible to Explore Hysteria, Frankenstein, Richard Matheson's, I am Legend. The book, not the Will Smith movie. and I mentioned the You're Wrong about episode on Dungeons and Dragons and how it got swept up in the Satanic panic. Stranger Things did not make all of this up. And my last recommendation is we just recorded one, probably about two hour podcast on Stranger Things. Our longest episode yet. It was nine movies, but if you wanna deep dive even more, there's a podcast called Strange Indeed. And they go episode by episode so they can talk in far more detail than we were able to. And of course, mean Girls because of Angela and Parks and Rec, because of the town hall scene. Okay. for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or threads, write a review. you can email us at John to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend about us. Word of mouth is the best advertisement, and if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us here in a week or two at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.

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