Drawn to Darkness

17 - Wes Craven's Scream

• Anne Azano • Episode 17

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Do you like scary movies? We do! In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we discuss Wes Craven’s Scream, the self-aware slasher that revived the genre and was a gateway to loving horror movies for so  many of us.

From Drew Barrymore’s unforgettable 12-minute opener to the Woodsboro house party, we explore how the film subverted horror tropes, dissect Sydney Prescott’s role as trauma survivor and feminist final girl icon, and argue why Matthew Lillard’s Stu might just be the MVP of the movie.

Expect nostalgia and laughter, as we talk killer fun facts, iconic lines (“I'll be right back!”), and the twist of the Ghostface reveal. We also dig into the film’s darker undercurrents: grief, media sensationalism, and domestic partner abuse.

Content & Spoiler Warning:
This episode contains discussion of graphic violence, murder, and domestic trauma. It also includes spoilers for Scream (1996) and references to other horror classics.

Palate Cleanser

Annie’s cure for all that blood and guts? Dogs—lots of dogs. Caroline’s? A TikTok handle called The Scenic Pickle, which features a pickle chilling in nature to ’90s grunge tracks. Absurd, yet strangely soothing.

Recommendations

Films & TV:

  • Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1992) — the original film
  • The Craft — another ’90s cult classic with supernatural flair
  • Ever After — for a softer Drew Barrymore escape
  • Cabin in the Woods and Tucker & Dale vs Evil  — for brilliant horror satire
  • Scary Movie because obviously.
  • Scream sequels (2, 3, 4, and 5)
  • Cruel Intentions
  • Halloween H2O and I Know What You Did Last Summer, Urban Legend, The Faculty, Disturbing Behaviour for more nostalgic ’90s teen slashers
  • Psycho — for the original early-death shocker
  • Party of Five — for your Neve Campbell nostalgia
  • Dawson's Creek - same writer Kevin Williamson!
  • The Final Girl Support Group by Grady Hendrix
  • Faculty of Horror podcast — for those who like their slasher talk scholarly
  • Mean Girls — because, let’s be honest, Gail Weathers is a mean girl.

Homework Assignment

Before our next episode, watch “The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel”. We’ll be examining the true-crime and media parallels that connect this haunting documentary to Rosemary’s Baby.

After that, Stranger Things Season 4, where bad Billies, horror homage, and moral panic all return in full force.

So follow the rules of a horror movie: Charge your phone, avoid the basement, no Ouija boards, and never say, "I'll be right back."

We’ll see you in two weeks—only on Drawn to Darkness.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and to Harry Kidd for our opening score (Instagram: @harryjkidd) 

Anne:

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you know who the killer is in the first Friday, the 13th, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows, and books.

Caroline:

And my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same for Annie from the true crime side of things.

Anne:

So, Caroline, I have a question. It's something I've been wondering for a long time. Do you like scary movies?

Caroline:

I like this scary movie.

Anne:

Okay. Well, this scary movie that we're going to be discussing today is the Infamous, the Notorious, the Legendary Scream, the first one.

Caroline:

Yes. Can I do a quick, dedication? Actually, I wanted to, on my dedicate this episode to my essentially sister from across the street growing up, Taryn, who we watched this movie 8 million times together, and it was hard to take notes on this and not just write down every single line.

Anne:

a lot of writing down every single line as well. before we get too far into scream, spoiler and trigger warning, there is stabbing, there is blood, there's guts spilling out. It's a slasher. And as usual, we will be spoiling this, movie. No, 30,

Caroline:

No. 30.

Anne:

nearly 30-year-old movie. God, we're old. go watch. We'll rewatch it. It's a blast. Here we go. Wes Craven scream, A mix of comedy, parody and slasher starts with our main character Casey played by Drew Barrymore making popcorn to watch a scary movie when she receives an ominous phone call. first, she thinks it's a wrong number. The caller chats about horror movies and we learn Her favorite is Halloween, the conversation turns sinister when he says he wants to know who he's looking at. He quizzes her on horror trivia, and when she mistakenly says Jason is the killer In Friday the 13th, it's actually his mother, Mrs. Borhees, the masked killer, who we now know as Ghostface murders her boyfriend, and then stalks and kills Casey Gruesomely. Her parents return moments too late to find her hanging from a tree. Shakar, the most famous actress in the movie, is dispatched. Within the first 12 minutes, then meet our true final girl, Sidney Prescott, still deeply traumatized by her mother's murder. The previous year. Her boyfriend, Billy Loomis, pressure her to be intimate, but she's not ready. Sydney's father leaves through the weekend Conveniently, on the anniversary of his wife's death, meet reporter Gail Withers, who believes Sidney has accused the wrong man. We also meet deputy Dewey, his sister Tatum and her boyfriend Stew. After Casey's murder, school's canceled and the students start dressing as Ghostface blurring the line between prank and threat. Sydney soon receives calls from the same killer, only for Billy her boyfriend to climb through her window and drop a cell phone leading Sydney and the police to suspect. He is the caller, but there are no suspicious calls on his phone, so he's released. Ignoring all logic. The teen's thorough party where ghost faced picks off guests, including Tatum in the infamous garage door scene while watching the classic horror film, Halloween Horror Buff, Randy explains the rules of surviving scary movies. Sydney, although still unsure about Billy Breaks rule number one and sleeps with him moments before ghost faced, kills him. Billy was innocent all along, or is he? After chasing and attacking Sydney, the final reveal comes out. Billy and Stu are both ghost face seeking revenge because Sydney's mother had an affair with Billy's father. Stew's just along for the ride. Peer pressure, they stab each other to pretend their innocent victims left for dead. And to frame Sydney's dad. But with Gail Weather's help Sydney outsmarts them. Dons the ghost face mask herself and survives for the sequel. So what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline:

I would say near perfection.

Anne:

Fiction. Okay.

Caroline:

Pretty damn close.

Anne:

have much criticism.

Caroline:

I have some, but it's all in good fun, it's all within the realm of plausible deniability for the sake of the experience,

Anne:

yeah. It's so fun. I have been so excited to re-watch this and discuss it for you, for me, fun, nostalgic, and obviously self-aware, so many horror references, so many references to storytelling within storytelling. Like when Randy says, if it gets too complicated, you lose your target audience, when Billy pops up for the final scare as they're discussing how killers always pop up for a final scare. So it's, it's on the nose, but it's so fun. It's delightful. Can you tell me about your scream journey? Like do you remember the first time you watched it or how you felt about it back in your teenage years?

Caroline:

I can't remember the first time I watched it. I do remember being like, oh, two people that being something that really blew my mind It never occurred to me. like that riddle about, oh, the doctor is his mother. You know, like, oh, a woman,

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

those types of things that when you're younger you're like, oh, right. but I had it on my initials, growing up, back in the day children, we used to put our initials on our backpacks through Ella Bean if we were lucky.

Anne:

not mine. My parents would never pay for that.

Caroline:

I did have an LL bean backpack with my initials on it, which were CID Sid, so everyone called me Sid. and then my friend Taryn, who, I watched it with, Taryn Tatum, not very far apart so we really enjoyed watching it obsessively and constantly, and quoting it all the time.

Anne:

You identified with the characters in Scream The Way I identified with Sandra Bullock as Annie in speed because we have the same name.

Caroline:

Yeah, There were not a lot of like characters named Caroline and the first time in my life that somebody used Caroline, I think it was that outcast song Roses. So it wasn't a positive thing.

Anne:

Oh yeah. I don't remember like first time I watched it. I just remember Really having ghost face on my mind. I spent some time on, this beach with a friend. She lived in this small beach town the summer after this came out. it was very, the summer I turned pretty, like bonfires on the beach, kissing boys, biking around, getting sunburned. And one night I lost her at this party and I had to bike back by myself to her house. And yes, small town close to midnight, streets are empty. And I remember just being like, space is gonna come around the corner anytime, he's out there. And I'm alone in the dark and it was just so in my head. So that would've been, I guess when I was like 15. And anyway, I've just loved it since then. a few years ago, my son When he was like eight years old, got dressed up as ghostface for Halloween. He chose that mask he spent so much time just like hanging around in the house in that costume, like a little creep. Like he perfected the slow, creepy head tilt.

Caroline:

Oh God, good.

Anne:

you know?

Caroline:

So good.

Anne:

It's funny how that head tilt thing is like so cute if a dog does it, but so menacing if a human does it,

Caroline:

Well, especially like when they're silent, when they silently tilt their head. Yeah. And the slow nod and stuff like that. I love, Matthew Lillard, like just he is every I, at the end I was like, I'm writing every single line that he says down every single line. He is so perfect in his delivery of everything. When you said peer pressure, I almost immediately was like, I'm far too sensitive. Like I just, he's so good.

Anne:

He is a scene stealer for sure. I, I honestly think he's my MVP of the movie.

Caroline:

for sure.

Anne:

Well, let's talk about, why scream's important? Beyond just being a fun slasher, it revitalized the genre. I think it was a gateway drug to horror for a lot of people. Like Myself included, a lot of millennials and Gen X. This would've been our first real, exposure to it. I do remember lurking in the horror aisle of my local blockbuster, like studying the backs of VHS's long before this came out. So my darkness was there. It didn't make me into horror lover, but it me a more creative horror lover. I dunno. But

Caroline:

I do think it mainstreamed it.'cause I was not a horror lover like you were just saying, there was all of this. laughable aspect to these slasher movies where nobody took them seriously. And like Randy says, everything is super predictable. And all these like b and c list people, I mean, Henry Winkler is in this and he's not even credited, and Drew Barrymore dying in that first scene, nobody saw that coming.

Anne:

Fantastic. fun facts. Kevin Williamson is a script writer. he also wrote a bunch of the scream sequels. I know what you did last summer, the faculty, and do you know what else he wrote? Something that's important to you.

Caroline:

Is it related to 9 0 2 1 oh, or Dawson's Creek?

Anne:

Nelson's Creek. Yep.

Caroline:

There you go.

Anne:

contribution this man has made to our lives.

Caroline:

The other thing actually is the Scream voice is another actor that nobody got to meet, right? To help with the whole scariness and suspense factor.

Anne:

another fun fact is they found that mask scouting for locations. Would the movie have hit the same way with a different mask? Hard to know, but because it's become so iconic,

Caroline:

Are you gonna talk about scouting locations a little bit more specifically?'cause there's definitely fun facts there.

Anne:

I don't think I know. So

Caroline:

Oh really?

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

So this is one of my favorite fun facts about this movie. At the very end credits, you will see a credit. That says no thanks whatsoever to the Santa Rosa City school district governing board because Wes Craven is a petty af and I am down for that. so yeah, they put a lot of red tape in place, which they tried to accommodate, and then at the last minute just was like, no, you can't film here. And they had to like, rewrite a bunch of stuff and find a new location and all this. I can't think of another movie that says No thanks whatsoever to,

Anne:

In the

Caroline:

and calls out. Yeah.

Anne:

So what other movies have, petty digs in the

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

There's probably a few out there. You know, what's a funny coincidence? Rose McGowan's shirt. The 10 shirt. Um, because Johnny Depp wears almost exactly the same thing. nightmare on Elm Street. but apparently it's a coincidence. I found this, article about her and she says that the wardrobe designer tried to put her in like overalls and kds saying their very now. And Rose responded with their very never and walked outta the room and went shopping herself and came across that T-shirt.

Caroline:

That's amazing.

Anne:

So she like chose a lot of her own outfits. did you know that it was originally titled Scary movie,

Caroline:

I think I did know that.

Anne:

but the Weinstein Brothers didn't like it, so they changed it to scream?

Caroline:

One of the bummers about this is the Weinstein involvement, which we've discussed at length. yeah, before watching this, I was watching the craft. just to get myself in the mood for Scream. since we had that conversation and re consumed Catch and Kill, whenever I see actresses from the nineties that I'm like, whatever happened to them. I wonder if he's a part of it. Like what's her face? Nancy from The Craft. Oh, Fara Bulk. She plays Nancy, I don't know if I'm saying her name right. She's also in, almost famous. She's one of those girls. De flower. De flower. Anyway,

Anne:

she's just gone.

Caroline:

I can't think of her in anything else and she's so good. She's incredible in the craft.

Anne:

And I guess that's the thing with acting, it's like some people just go nowhere for whatever reason, but

Caroline:

Right?

Anne:

If they've been in a Weinstein production and they've had an encounter with him, you wonder. Anyway, that's not what this one's about.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

talk about all the references.

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

self-aware movie, like the sixth, like the sixth Sense, which I still can't say with characters discussing story within the story. Last week in our Rosemary's Baby episode, you mentioned not having encountered a lot of movies that reference other media so much

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

as like, Hey, Rosemary's baby, hold my beer.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

is an ode to horror. Did you have any favorite references?

Caroline:

The first thing I thought of is when he's like, your mother was No Sharon Stone

Anne:

Well, yeah. Not all of them are, horror references. Sydney says, with my luck, I'd get Tori spelling

Caroline:

Which I.

Anne:

Tori.

Caroline:

Then she does play her in the movie, you know, meta in the later screams. Yeah.

Anne:

who says, oh, really? Alicia, as if, is it

Caroline:

Alicia. Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah, Alicia. they bring up the Richard Gere Geral story,

Caroline:

Oh yeah.

Anne:

you know, so there was a lot other contemporary references besides the horror Is that true?

Caroline:

I just don't agree with the whole, like, you can only hear that story so many times before you start believing there has to be truth to it. yes, you can, people make a lot of bologna.

Anne:

I guess she is referencing the idea that, a lie, get around the world before the truth gets its shoes on that quote,

Caroline:

but she is trying to say, her mom did get around, she's not saying it's a lie, that her mom had an affair with cotton or whatever.

Anne:

Well, obviously Halloween is the main reference here. They watched it at the party. Billy's last name is Loomis. After Dr. Loomis Ghostface lurks in the background, just like Michael Myers. And both start with the murder of a teen whose parents come home just a little bit too late. Wes Craven, the director, makes a cameo, a Hitchcockian cameo as a school janitor wearing the iconic Freddie Krueger sweater. Linda Blair shows up as a reporter. Billy says, we all go a little mad sometimes, which is a line from Psycho. Randy mentions Candyman, which still horrifies me to this day.'Cause my friend's older brother put it on at a sleepover when I was very young, scarred me for life. Recently my son, who has not seen Candyman, we, were at a campsite that had candyman written on the bathroom mirror. And my son was like, what is all that about? And I told him about the legend and he was like, oh, I'm gonna say it. And I was legitimately like, no, no, no. Like don't say it. Please don't say it. Done. Sum in Candyman.

Caroline:

Randy mentions prom night.

Anne:

yep. Tatum says, I spit on your garage reference to a spit on your grave. Randy calls Billy Leatherface another Texas chainsaw massacre, I think, is it Billy who mentioned Silence of Lambs. And

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

is life. This isn't a movie,

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

is funny. Sydney climbs out onto the roof is kind of reminiscent of the Shining because Wendy Torrance tries to get out through a window onto the roof, as you said in the past. Billy references Carrie when he tells Sydney his fake blood, his corn syrup. And also in Carrie, the bad guys. Billy,

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

too. Like there's so many. Did I miss any that you think are important?

Caroline:

she says some West Carpenter flick.

Anne:

yes,, I thought that was so interesting because. you know, Wes Craven with John Carpenter. It's weird because show the movie Halloween, Which is a John Carpenter movie. So who directed Halloween? Is West Craven taking credit? or is this like a parallel universe thing? Because they exist in a world where our horror movies exist, but then they change it around just a little bit. Right.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

which kind of reminds me of zombie movies. so many zombie movies where they don't say the word zombie. Have you, you noticed that?

Caroline:

I mean, you, you have mentioned you're gonna get me to respect zombie movies.

Anne:

Train to Busan coming up? yeah, they're always like Walkers, biters the infected. And I wanna see a scene in a zombie movie where someone ominously states something like, oh, we call them Shaler. And another character's like, wait, have you not seen a zombie movie? they're zombies, come on.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

at that. what else? and you know, Billy says, it all says, it's all one big great movie, and I need to throw my Macbeth reference in here. I think that recalls Macbeth's, soliloquy life is, but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets is hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing. So I thought that kind of nihilistic attitude, that nothing matters is just a movie. We're all just playing. Our part aligns with Billy's views on life and his motivations for his actions.

Caroline:

So if you're drinking every time Annie mentions Macbeth, go ahead.

Anne:

I think I have done it every

Caroline:

Almost every episode. Yeah.

Anne:

it's just like on my mind. my students are preparing for their big Macbeth exam, so I think about. That and horror, I guess. So let's talk about setting, woodsboro.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

these houses, the views, the land these people have, my God, so gorgeous.

Caroline:

this was another reason I related to this movie because I did grow up in a very rural town that had two acres zoning. And a lot of people had houses like this. And the only thing there is to do is have parties at whoever's house. The parents aren't home. Um,

Anne:

a butts of forest, right?

Caroline:

yeah, the nature preserve was behind my house. Yeah.

Anne:

I lived on a campus because my parents were boarding school teachers, so like we had a lot of woods around us as well. Reminds me of this one house I used to babysit at that was just like so far from everything and I was always so uneasy there because it just reminded me of, Casey's house They paid well

Caroline:

Well, we might talk about this in survival, but I did of course look up how long it takes the police department to respond to a nine one one call in this town where Casey's house actually is. So I looked at the address of the house that Drew Barry Moore, is that scene is at, and the response time, is six minutes, 57 seconds. So there was absolutely time for the police to get there.

Anne:

So don't ask a barber if you need a haircut. Don't ask a serial killer if you should. Call the police.

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

Call the police.

Caroline:

The other thing is and I was not rich in my rich town, I even had an alarm system that would automatically call the fire department or police department. That popcorn is on fire on the stove. The alarms are not going off, but the parents walk in and I looked it up three minutes and 31 seconds. In the popcorn's done at, nine minutes and five seconds, there is flames in the kitchen, and then at 11 minutes, 54 seconds is when the alarm starts going off. That's way too long, and the alarm absolutely would've gone off.

Anne:

So survival, make sure you change your smoke alarm, batteries.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Well, I mean, there's a part of me that would love to live in rural towns. Like every time we go camping and we pass through some country town, I'm like, I wanna be on the outskirts of someplace like this. I, I don't really care about being in the city and I don't take advantage of what cities have to offer. I like staying home and doing puzzles and watching movies and walking in the woods. But then I think about people who are actually too far, and my anxieties about being murdered by a serial killer. And I think maybe I'm better to be surrounded by people in the suburbs.

Caroline:

Yeah, we live in town very much on purpose and I've always felt safer with lots of people around. And the police department is like a block from our house, which my son last night was like, I am having one of those nights where I'm worried someone's gonna break in. And I'm like, we have two huge dogs. The police department's a block away. We are not in the biggest house in the area. Like, you don't need to worry about it. Um. And then I reminded him also that his Google speaker can call 9 1 1. So he calmed down.

Anne:

Do you have a favorite scream house? I like Tatum's house with its beautiful front porch.

Caroline:

Yes. I like the front porch. I really like Sydney's house. And actually, I think about Sydney's house all the time because I have two doorknobs that do that in my house currently.

Anne:

like in her bedroom?

Caroline:

Yeah. The door into the kitchen and the pantry door hook knobs, all the time. And I probably think about this movie, you know, every couple days because I get caught

Anne:

Every time you open that door.

Caroline:

every time I get stuck. cause someone's like literally sitting on the floor of the pantry eating all the snacks.

Anne:

I did think the, even though the houses are gorgeous, the decor was ugly, like ugly

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

decorating, and a lot of the interiors of these houses reminded me strangely of the footage of JonBenet Ramsey's house because they were supposed to be so loaded and such a privileged, wealthy family. And then I look at the inside of their house, I'm like, this place looks like crap.

Caroline:

Well, it's like the decor makes it dark even though it's very bright.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Uh, Casey's house actually is great. Drew Barrymore's house is,

Anne:

is beautiful.

Caroline:

All those windows and everything like that. And nice big kitchen with the gas stove.

Anne:

And those big French doors, which are lovely unless somebody's stalking you from outside in the dark.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Well, in terms of time, as we said, very nineties Turner, the millennium. Do you remember how in the nineties people in TV and movies would always be like, it's the nineties.

Caroline:

Yes.

Anne:

I found a super cut of that. Like all different

Caroline:

Really,

Anne:

TV shows. Yeah, I'll share it at some point.

Caroline:

I love that part of Bridesmaids when, Kristen Wig is like, it's the nineties, it's sequel, right?

Anne:

I know. That's great. Randy says it's the millennium motives are incidental. Can I just say the nineties, late nineties were a great time to be in high school. We were pretty lucky.

Caroline:

Oh my God. It was, there was an episode of the Dollop where I think, Dave Anthony is like, we peaked as a species nineties,

Anne:

I know

Caroline:

and it's been,

Anne:

Right? Like depending on what demographic you were in, like things were not necessarily great. Right. But terms of not having the phones yet and the freedom we had, there was a lot of great stuff.

Caroline:

and I love Drew's nineties lipstick, oh my gosh. Nineties lipstick. I really, really love all that. I used to put on eyeliner as lip liner, and then just like a tan.

Anne:

looked great.

Caroline:

Oh my God. It was the best.

Anne:

Another aspect of the nineties, setting is the focus on the oddity of having a cell phone, which feels like so dated, when Skeet drops his cell phone. Everyone you know, is appalled, That

Caroline:

Well, yeah.

Anne:

owning a phone is us.

Caroline:

I mean, I thought about that because I was like, is it that bizarre? Because they're wealthy kids, and I had a cell phone in high school for my car because when you live in the middle of nowhere, if you get in a car accident, and that's all it was for It was for calling 9 1 1,

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

but like,

Anne:

and clunky?

Caroline:

yeah, but people knew I had it, you know? I think that's the thing is that it drops out of his pocket. Why doesn't his girlfriend know he has a cell phone, know?

Anne:

a secret cell phone.

Caroline:

Right,

Anne:

cheating,

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

other thing I think we should comment on is the score not so much the score. Like I think the score is fine. But, the Nick Cave song its inclusion has made red right hand really iconic and so for any horror mixtape. I was thinking about other, like horror songs that you'd want for a horror movie mixtape, you definitely need Painted it Black and that song from Science, the Lambs.

Caroline:

Oh yeah.

Anne:

dances too.

Caroline:

my gosh. I love whenever there's memes about like me in the hole when that jam comes on.

Anne:

totally. Okay,

Caroline:

the other nineties thing I noticed is behind Drew's back because she's about to watch a movie. The giant clunky TV that is sitting on the floor is set to channel three.

Anne:

okay. Nice. And doesn't she have an Indigo Girls poster? Somebody has an Indigo Girls

Caroline:

Oh yes. I think it's Sydnee has the Indigo Girls. So

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

TV is on channel three. Sydnee has the Indigo Girls poster.

Anne:

Actually I read in that Rose McGowan article that originally the Indigo Girls poster was in her bedroom and she was like, Tatum wouldn't listen to them.

Caroline:

I agree.

Anne:

they're for sydnee, for sure.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

of these characters, let's talk about them. First of all, not single person I think looks like they're in high school, typical nineties casting near 30 year olds for high

Caroline:

Right?

Anne:

Maybe a little bit earlier, but the most egregious is probably Stockard Channing as Rizzo. She was like

Caroline:

Uh, yeah.

Anne:

mid thirties,

Caroline:

Well, and Andy in, Dawson's. Like there's all these extreme efforts to make her look younger with like braids and overalls and she just looks creepy.

Anne:

Stacey Dash as Dion and Clueless. She was really old as well, obviously Andrea.

Caroline:

entre. Yeah.

Anne:

Well, let's talk about Sydney. one of the most iconic final girls of all time. Were you a party of five fan?

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

I'm pretty sure it was on at the same time as 9 0 2 1. Oh,

Caroline:

was just about to say I was just about to say it unless I'm misremembering. It was on the same time as 9 0 2 1. Oh, and obviously I had loyalties there, so no.

Anne:

me watch 9 0 2 1. Oh, so we were a party of five family. I had to watch 9 0

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

oh later. you know, perhaps growing up as a party of five fan instead of 9 0 2 1 oh was, is sacrilegious to be a wife to my husband and friend to you, but

Caroline:

You know, I just feel pity. pity.

Anne:

Well, it's not my fault. My parents wouldn't let me. Yeah. Um.

Caroline:

I know. Which sucks. I had the Barbies even I was watching it way young.

Anne:

Yeah. so I feel like I had pictures of Nev Campbell on my wall because I had one of those like slanted roofs in my childhood bedroom. And I'd like tear out pictures of celebrities I liked and put them up there. I know I had Gwyneth and Brad up there and I know I had a bunch of like milk mustache and absolute vodka posters

Caroline:

God.

Anne:

and I'm

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

sure Nev Campbell was up there too. Well, Sydnee feminist icon and horror because she calls out the tropes and sexism that you see in movies like Halloween and flips the script on them, though I do think it's funny that she makes fun of dumb horror victims for running up the stairs when you should be going out the front door and then immediately does the same thing. But

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

was locked. Yeah, I guess she had no choice. Sydney's also more complex because we get her background trauma. She's flawed, you know, she's not just fighting ghost face, but her inner demons and doubts and, she made a mistake and put weary in jail and we're seeing that play out. So she's angry, she's sad, she's trying to be strong. She's plagued by doubt so that just makes her more than, more than the final girls we've perhaps seen in the past who don't get that background.

Caroline:

it's my poor boyfriend has to put up with me because I am not ready for sex and I should be grateful that he's with me.

Anne:

I think there was a lot of that attitude

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

the nineties, so it wasn't perfect. Like we grew up like Cosmo and, Marie Claire, right? Like all those magazines that had all this, sex positivity and quizzes, but also it, it did put pressure on I think women to be sexually available, but then we would also be punished if

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

were having sex.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So I think this kind of explores that slut shaming versus sex positivity kind of thing. but Sydnee manages to break the rules by having sex, claim her sexuality, but not get punished, you know, whereas the characters who have sex in Halloween and other movies like this get taken out.

Caroline:

did you ever know anyone or have anyone climb into a bedroom like a boyfriend, climb into a bedroom window? I didn't have a house where that was possible, friend,

Anne:

time I had BI had boyfriends. We were in Second story house, yeah.

Caroline:

I did have a friend who lived in a gorgeous house and had a little, like Juliette Balcony and her boyfriend climbed up it and she lost her virginity that way. Pretty epic movie wise.

Anne:

Yeah, that's a great story. She must have won. Never have I ever, time she played.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I guess when we think of Sydney, Annette, Madonna whore complex that so many female characters are held up to. She's a rare character. That's neither and both, she

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

that line.

Caroline:

I was sort of trying to think about this interesting like, aspect of it. There's these efforts in the beginning to definitely. Age her down or make her look more innocent, like when he climbs into her bedroom and she's typing on her computer, which I always love when actors type. but she's wearing like the ugliest nightgown. I would've just been in a big slouchy t-shirt,

Anne:

It's very, it's almost Victorian,

Caroline:

yeah. Yeah. he's like, what? Are you sleeping? And she's like, yeah, I'm sleeping. It's like, no, you're were, the lights are on and you're typing why. Anyway, and then she also got off the school bus, which I thought was interesting because if she's like, popular, which clearly she is, they hang out on the fountain. That's the signature sign in the nineties that you're part of the popular crowd. You eat lunch on the fountain at your school. like why was she taking the bus home? Nobody drove her home.

Anne:

somebody could drive her

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

even if she doesn't have a car. Weird.

Caroline:

was not in the popular crew and I got drives home. I didn't take the bus, you know,

Anne:

You got dried home.

Caroline:

drives. I got drives. Yeah. That was the gruel. I started to say great, and said, cool, whatever.

Anne:

yeah, I think if you wanna learn more about this by people who know more than we do, there's this great podcast that I listened to called the Faculty of Horror, one of the women writes for Ru Morgue and they discuss this in far more depth, like literary analysis, very scholarly. I thought it was very interesting. So check them out. Fewer 9 0 2 1 oh references, more scholarly articles.

Caroline:

I won't be checking it out then.

Anne:

now one thing I think was important in Sydney's characterization, Wes Craven says that he was inspired by his daughter because she commented while watching Swamp Thing, dad, girls don't always fall down. said, this made me realize I had fallen into the old horror cliche of the girl running from the villain and tripping on a rock or some other debris. I didn't really care for that. So it got me thinking about taking it in the other direction.

Caroline:

that reminds me, there's a great clip of Reese Witherspoon. She's at some sort of award show and she's talking about how women are written and she's like, you always know a man wrote it when the woman is like, what do we do? You know, like turns to a man's, like, what do we do now? Like, have you ever, ever heard a, a woman say that in a crisis situation?

Anne:

I'm the one who's like, okay, here's what we need to do.

Caroline:

I, yeah. Okay. Okay. Just gimme a second. Okay. Here's what we do now.

Anne:

Yeah. All Right, let's talk Billy are you

Caroline:

Ugh.

Anne:

must we?

Caroline:

Yeah. No, we must,'cause I got a lot of shit to say

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

about Billy.

Anne:

Billy's a jerk.

Caroline:

he's such a jerk. when he says it's been a year, you need to get over it. I was appalled. I remember feeling like that seems fast in high school, but now that I've actually had parents die, all of my parents have passed and I can't imagine someone feeling it's been a year like, don't you think you should move on? Like, are you kidding me? Especially they all passed as older people when I was an adult. not horrifically murdered when I was a teenager,

Anne:

he's absolutely wrong. obviously the worst thing he does is, fake a year long relationship with her to ultimately get her to have sex and then murder her. That's pretty bad. But he also kind of just sucks in that nineties broody boyfriend way that kind of, I don't know, conditioned us to find that attractive And that's we should

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Randy

Caroline:

Yeah. I think it started with Ethan Hawk in, reality Bites.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Date the fun guy, right?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Like, having said that, skeet as Billy in his Chris boy t-shirt. With his hair falling over his eyes, like just so giving Johnny Depp, sexual awakening for sure.

Caroline:

I mean,

Anne:

Part of that.

Caroline:

he's giving Johnny Depp, which was never my type. Johnny Depp is too pretty. that's, it's too clean. Everything's too clean. I like it. A little more gruff.

Anne:

we mentioned people being too old. Skeet was like 25, 26 and looks at, I've mentioned before, I'm a high school teacher. Nobody looks like he looks in this movie.

Caroline:

He looked very close in age to his dad.

Anne:

Yeah. And gaslighting her for like a whole year. And then there's that moment after they have sex, and he is like, what do I have to do to prove to you I'm not a killer? And then he gets stabbed by Ghost face. And at least the first time I saw this, I was like, oh, we did Billy wrong. Like poor him aligned, falsely accused Billy. He was innocent the whole time. Nope.

Caroline:

I love when she says, fuck you. And he's like, oh no, no. We played that game already. You lost

Anne:

Oh, that is not so mean.

Caroline:

it is so mean. I have a question. So do we think, and trigger warning we're going to discuss sexual assault. Do you think that he assaulted her mother or do you think that she just had slept with cotton? cause Definitely rape kits were around,

Anne:

I thought that at first that Billy. that she was raped, I think she probably just had sex with cotton,'cause cotton was there and he left and he said he was drunk. So I reckon she

Caroline:

Right,

Anne:

cotton and then was murdered and they assumed the evidence of sexual activity was rape.

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

if Billy and or Stu raped her, but I reckon they just murdered her. Just murdered

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

poor Sydnee, like we discussed this in Rosemary, Mary's baby, but the idea that can you really trust any, anyone, you'd think after dating someone for a year, you'd have a good read on their personality and obviously, so sociopaths can be very convincing and charming. having said that, I mean, and this is kind of a criticism in terms of the plausibility of all this, which doesn't really matter for a movie like this, but if you think about what happened, we've got two teenage boys with developing brains. That somehow have the self-control to plan these murders over a year in advance, he was dating Sydney before the murder, because he talks about how she changed,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

you know, putting in this time pretending to be normal for a whole year.

Caroline:

that's a thing that happens in movies too, and TV shows where I'm like, how did you know?'cause there was a lot of scares, a lot of attacks. How did you know you'd end up here at this house party just after midnight on the anniversary? Because they would discover principal Hembry. Hanging from the flagpole and everyone else would leave the house. So you could reveal your, lot of things.

Anne:

all that happen, right? Like they kill Himey.

Caroline:

Right. But do they know? But do they know when he's gonna get discovered when the phone call is gonna, you know, like there's so,

Anne:

the phone call.

Caroline:

yeah, that's true.

Anne:

call? there's a phone call, but we don't

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

who it is,

Caroline:

that's true.

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

Why did Tatum have to die?

Anne:

I mean, do you need a reason to kill your girlfriend?

Caroline:

Oh, right. Of course. There's always some bullshit reason to kill your girlfriend.

Anne:

There's

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

reason to kill your girlfriend.

Caroline:

Stew is who I would've dated by the way.

Anne:

I, I think I would've fallen for Stew too. Yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah. He is so funny when he's like, should I let the machine get it?

Anne:

yeah, he's great. He's great. I mean, just so many good lines. He's got this like Jim Carrey, like rubber face. great comedic relief. I love the way he says I'll be right back.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

best lines. I love when he's like, my parents are gonna be so mad.

Caroline:

love that. My mom and daddy are so happy and when he says liver alone

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

liver li. It was a joke.

Anne:

He makes sure, you know, and it's like at this point, Stu, like you're either dying from Billy, stabbing you, or you're going to jail. It doesn't matter what your parents think.

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

And I love that he's wearing that big red playboy mansion, bathrobe or whatever he's wearing around his house.

Caroline:

So good. So good. Oh my gosh.

Anne:

real motive is? Is he in love with Billy?

Caroline:

I don't know. And actually, I was gonna ask you, when he's saying like, did they ever figure out why Hannibal Lecter liked to eat people? Like, Nope. And they're talking about how motives are incidental or whatever. But then he says, how about this? Your slut mother was fucking my father Stu looks shocked. do you think Stu didn't know

Anne:

I don't know.

Caroline:

they, cut to him. cause I, I remember thinking that in high school being like, does Stu really not know why they were doing this this whole time? Is he just like opposer and that's all his dimension.

Anne:

in Billy's thro, which, ties into the potential, that Billy was. That maybe Stu was closeted or bisexual or something and

Caroline:

Yeah, I mean, I think like, one dimensional posers is also a nineties trope in movies.

Anne:

Well, I also wonder, was Billy out Stew with those stab wounds? Billy's the true sociopath here, I think,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Stu is, baggage at this point. he's a loose end that could talk. You can't trust that guy. Right. So he seems a little too forceful.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I love that the way Stu dies is by tv. he's watched too much TV and TV is the thing that kills him,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne:

think in terms of the mode of things like Billy says. It's a lot scarier when there's no motive mentioning Norman Bates and Hannibal Lecter. And I, I agree. I find the idea of no motive scarier, even though the vast, vast, vast majority of murders would've a motive, it's people who know each other, but the psychopath who kills because they like it, that is stuck in our collective consciousness. And it's harder to comprehend and to avoid by, you know, changing your behavior. and guess not pissing people off. So there's the famous quote from the movie, the Strangers where Liv Tyler and, um, Scott Speedman, Ben from Felicity are menace by these masked intruders. she's at the end like, why us? one of the bad guys goes, because you were home. And it's just so chilling.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

mean, Billy is an abandoned little boy who can't handle his parents' divorce, I guess.

Caroline:

He's a handsy ass mama's boy.

Anne:

yeah. Stew is peer pressure.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. I'm far too sensitive.

Anne:

So good. speaking of things I like about, Stew is Ghostface, all the times that Ghostface is darting around in the background, he's in the grocery store and like

Caroline:

I know,

Anne:

him.

Caroline:

I know. I wrote that down too. Why is he like hanging out in the bushes? In costume?

Anne:

Yeah. He's like behind a tree and he's like

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

off to the side he seems to have these magical, mystical powers of appearance and disappearance, but equal parts clutz and ninja.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So I have a theory that

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

disappearing mysteriously somewhere, that that's when he is Billy. And when he's like, being absolute clutz and falling over, that's when he's st still.

Caroline:

another way to tell if you're not super short like me is I did, of course, look up the heights of these people and Matthew Lillard is six foot four and Ske Rick, apparently six feet, but I think, I don't know about that. Yeah, I,

Anne:

Matt Lillard seems

Caroline:

yeah, I believe that Skeets publicist said he's six feet tall, but I don't know if he were

Anne:

the way we hear about our president's height and weight, right?

Caroline:

right. Exactly.

Anne:

he's so physically slapstick reactive, like in the way he reacts to Tatum throwing the bottles at him and he is like

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

doors and tripping over. Yeah. it's funny. I think what's interesting about this is I feel like this is the first time, and I don't know if there's been any other time besides maybe scream, know, sequels when there's multiple killers pretending to be the same identity, like sharing an

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

You know, there's obviously been movies where killers are working together, but, this is different. I think the two killers reveal makes certain plot points somewhat more plausible,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

we could get from one place to the other so quickly, or doing things that require actual physical strength, like hoisting Casey's body up a tree on a very tight deadline as her parents drive in the driveway. went camping and like I can't get our roof rack off and on the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

things like camping and elaborate corpse display are the kind of extracurricular activities where you need an extra set of hands.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I do think they're very dumb that they don't restrain Sydney in some way at the end in the great reveal

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

and that they stab each other and Make themselves v vulnerable before killing Sydnee. They could be like, here's our plan, now we're killing you. And then do that. Right?

Caroline:

Yeah, and this is, I guess a criticism of all these things like that he doesn't actually shoot Gail, that the people they leave for dead, aren't dead. There's very easy ways to ensure people are dead, but then you wouldn't have a sequel.

Anne:

movie. Yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I guess, these are teenage boys and they're not thinking everything through. I think most 17, 18 year olds would have trouble planning a murder like this. I do think it's that the ghost face identity, like from the very first movie, can change depending on who wears the mask. Right.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

quote Miles Morales my favorite Spider-Man who says anyone can wear the mask.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I think it's great that Sydney wears the mask, even though I don't think it's a very smart decision, it's a good movie decision. A good cinematic, flipping of the script, but I don't think I would put on that costume because I feel like you're gonna get caught on something and your field of vision is compromised. Right. And

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

very sweaty.

Caroline:

Yeah. One smart decision actually along those lines that I wrote down at the end, Gail, is not wearing her shoes. And I always hate, especially like those new Jurassic Park movies with Bryce Ellis Howard, and she's running from dinosaurs in heels like, like humps, I don't understand. Put your hair in a ponytail, get it outta your face and take your shoes off. Especially because I loved those shoes by the way, when she steps into the blood and everything, I'm like, oh, look at those chunky heels. I love those chunky heels. And then I noticed as soon as they were off her feet and I was like, smart Gail, you know?

Anne:

girl, Gail. Yeah. I, would question the decision to wear chunky high heels to a serial killer stakeout in any situation. But yeah, maybe she didn't think she was gonna become the victim. I think,

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

Should we talk about Gail?

Caroline:

Sure.

Anne:

I love Gail. She's so

Caroline:

Love,

Anne:

she's villain and hero.

Caroline:

right? Love to hate her.

Anne:

Yeah. She's so mean to Kenny, her cameraman

Caroline:

Oh my God. I wrote at the end, like, I hope she dedicates her breaking story to the memory of her cameraman. she's like, okay, I think it's gonna go something like this. Like she just, she just pushed him off her windshield, as she says, get off my windshield.

Anne:

If she does dedicate it to him, it would be an effort to look good as opposed to out of real empathy.

Caroline:

So true.

Anne:

I mean, he's just trying to go to work. He's body shamed, he's bullied, and then he gets murdered. Right? Like he didn't sign up for any of that.

Caroline:

she made me wanna be a brunette in this.'cause her eyes, I have blue eyes, but blonde hair and her eyes, especially with those streaky nineties highlights, it really pops that brunette. So well done with the hair.

Anne:

You have a thing for dark hair, and blue eyes, don't you?

Caroline:

I do.

Anne:

When do you think Gail actually started to like Dewey?

Caroline:

I, oh gosh. I feel like movie too. But I do, I always really love when they fall on top of each other, which never happens in real life, but when they fall on top of each other and she's like, is that what you're looking for? And he's like, my whole life.

Anne:

So funny.

Caroline:

So Doy,

Anne:

I also love when he's like, I was 24 for a whole year. Like it's a smooth line, Dewey.

Caroline:

he's so charming.

Anne:

Yeah. just back to Gail for a minute. you know, she's a teenager going through trauma for the sake of a story for the past year, we can imagine. she's ruthless, she's ambitious. She crosses the line like she infiltrates a teenage party and hides the biggest camera I've ever seen and direct eye line of the teenagers, Good thing they're wasted. But at the same time, Sydney's wrong, Gail is right. She's advocating for an innocent man and sydnee needs to atone for that

Caroline:

maybe ay tabloid journalist will win a Pulitzer.

Anne:

Does she ever win a Pulitzer as the show,

Caroline:

No, I don't think so.

Anne:

so. Yeah. Well, should we talk a little bit more about Dewey? He's Patricia and Rosanna Arquettes brother, the actor David Ar Cat, which ties in with our episode on Catch and Kill. And our episode on Act as well with Patricia Arquette playing, Deedee Blanchard.

Caroline:

Do we never discuss that? he's in Buffy the vampires Slayer as well as we talk about the movie.

Anne:

None. I've never,

Caroline:

I, I've never watched a show, but I had the movie because Luke Perry's in it, so

Anne:

It's just one of those things I missed. Yeah.

Caroline:

maybe we should watch that. It is a horror movie.

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

It's very nineties.

Anne:

Dewey is very incompetent. he is told to stay close to Sydney, like you had one job he is just following Gail around like a puppy because he's susceptible to flattery.

Caroline:

He like hands the beer back to the kid

Anne:

Yeah. He

Caroline:

at the party.

Anne:

because if he's

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Tatum's gonna bully him. Right. my favorite dewy scene besides I was 24 for a whole year is when he's eating an ice cream cone. Like, really? Seriously. And like a vanilla ice cream cone is the most childish food. Except for like mac and cheese or something, while his chief is like, seriously smoking a cigarette. And it's just so funny. It made me laugh.

Caroline:

I like when he is getting yelled at by Tatum when he's like, when I'm wear this suit, you treat me like a man of the law.

Anne:

Why is he holding the mask to that door?

Caroline:

I don't, I found this.

Anne:

Like he's not hold. He's talking behind him and he is holding it in front of him. Like there's no plausible explanation for Dewey to hold the door to the keyhole. It doesn't make any sense.

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

Bit more about Tatum, I guess she is presented as the other half of that Madonna horror complex. Sydney's the Virgin Tatum is not, but again, both of them, deviate from those boxes. And McGowan plays her as more than that. I found an article with her saying that she wanted to play her as more than a sarcastic throwaway bitch. She said everything I did had to be cute, but not in a saccharine way. She has to be sassy, but not bitchy warm, but caustic. And I think she did that well.

Caroline:

So well, her supportive friend vibe is amazing. this scene is one of the things we quoted over and over again, but the whole, I'll send you a copy. BA bitch went down like with the teddy bear and everything. So cute.

Anne:

Yeah. Awesome. by the way, as somebody who is. mistreated by the industry, which we talk about in Catch and Kill. She has really nice things to say about West Craven like

Caroline:

Oh, that's nice.

Anne:

and as we talked about before, her clothes are Shep's Kiss, very Contempo

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

She dresses the way I wanted to dress in high school, but like would never have been able to pull off. Do we wanna go straight into garage? Do Tatum.

Caroline:

Oh God. let's, yeah, let's wrap up Tatum in the horrible way that she gets wrapped up. When she's getting the beers outta the garage, which, how did nobody notice that? The beers did not arrive, but

Anne:

many beers.

Caroline:

But the other thing is there's eggs in the egg thing. So there are eggs taken out of a carton and put into the individual egg holes of the fridge in the garage. Who does that?

Anne:

That's a weird thing to do. I could see like if you have extra eggs, keeping the them in the,

Caroline:

The carton?

Anne:

yeah, it's effort to take it out.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Stew's family has, um, hired help.

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

somebody's unpacking the groceries, I dunno.

Caroline:

they're individually bringing the eggs into the kitchen. It's like for breakfast?

Anne:

Yeah, maybe they do like egg and spoon rice every

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Tatum trying to carry those beers reminded me of Gus the Mouse from Cinderella. Do you know when Cinderella's fed the mice kernels and then Lucifer's stalking them? And Gus is getting greedy and he is like trying to hold them with his

Caroline:

Of course and it pops out.

Anne:

kernels and it's like super tense, a really

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

scene for a Disney cartoon. That was what I thought of when I saw Tatum carrying those beers.

Caroline:

I also thought of, I don't remember, other than Zema, I don't remember anything in a bottle. Beer wise, in a high school party you were definitely drinking cans,

Anne:

Yeah, I'd say same.

Caroline:

but

Anne:

I

Caroline:

a can isn't gonna shatter when you throw it at someone's crotch. So I understand

Anne:

in that article I read about Rose McGowan. Apparently it was actually freezing cold. They it like 20 times and nobody told her about the nipples.

Caroline:

you know, Jennifer Anderson often mentions like people commenting on her nipples, on friends all the time, and she's just like, whatever, they're part of my body. I don't care which good for her, I. Have always wore lined bras because I am insecure about nipples showing, but good on them,

Anne:

Yes. So I think Tatum was really going all right until she tried to go through the cat door or the dog door or whatever. She's chucking beers. She's slamming him in the face with the freezer door. She does the duck and flip. you didn't get away with any of that with uh, Michael Myers, right? he just keep on coming, but she's fighting Another fun fact. She could fit through that door. They had to like pin her or nail her shirt in because she kept falling through. So, so when we debate could Rose and Jack have both fit on the door, like Tatum could have gotten through the dog. I feel like that scene is a lot gorier than I remember, the way her mangled body's stuck there, and I feel like that has made me afraid of garages that stuck with me. It was probably the iest thing I'd ever seen. Until like the final destination movies came out at that point in my life.

Caroline:

I never look, I always close my eyes. same with, Casey, I have never actually seen her.

Anne:

No, I watch it, but it's Corey, it's awful. she says, mom, she calls up for her mom in the last moment before her neck is broken.

Caroline:

I didn't notice that. Oh, that gave me the chills. We had discussed that before.

Anne:

yeah. In our care episode. Uh, the idea that you want your mom when you're scared and suffering, and I thought that was really chilling and ironic in a movie called Scream that

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

the main characters who is cast as the Blonde.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And to give her that moment of humanity, of wanting her mom instead of her just being as I'm speaking, I'm kind of realizing parents are such a huge part of this, you

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

crying out for her mom and her dying moments. Billy's doing this because of his parents, Sydney's traumatized by her mother's death. first thought when he's gonna get caught is that his mom and dad will be mad at him. And Casey's parents find her.

Caroline:

one thing actually about Tatum's mom, I was looking at her and I was like, she's familiar. Where is she from? And she's Lorraine's mom and back to the future.

Anne:

I

Caroline:

So, Marty, I hope you like meatloaf.

Anne:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, now I recognize her. Okay. I can picture her now. I just have to say, aside from the murderer, picking everyone off that party is like my ideal high school party

Caroline:

Oh my god.

Anne:

of fun people like watching tv. Okay.

Caroline:

I, yeah, I have a note. Love a nineties house party.

Anne:

yes. And you know, I was just thinking when I saw that scene, I don't really watch horror movies with people anymore. Except for maybe my annual jaws rewatch with my family. Like generally I'm kind of watching it by myself. Or if you know it's Friday the 13th, or Halloween or my birthday, I'll be like, my husband's, you must watch a horror movie with me. I kind of miss that communal, fun and joy and fear and reacting that those kids have together.

Caroline:

Yeah. I don't know if I've mentioned on this before, but we started a new tradition in my husband's family, which drink I'm mentioning my husband, that on the holidays we watch the Fast and Furious movies It's such a fun like communal watch where we're just like, he caught her in midair. No, no, no. It's after the kids are in bed and the adults are drinking and we're all just hanging out and we're just watching, cars jump between buildings, cars go into spa, you know, all this ridiculous stuff. It We just love a good snark watch.

Anne:

Snark watches are the best. I love

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

One thing I had a question about, are those the same kids that got expelled hanging out at that party? Because why is Sydnee hanging out with them and why hasn't Stu noticed that Tatum didn't come back? even if you don't notice her, you'd be like, where are the beers? Right?

Caroline:

Yeah, I know why Stu hasn't mentioned,, but somebody does ask as he's saying goodbye to people. cause I also noticed people leaving in waves, which I thought it was very accurate about what it would be like to be a high school student when something like this is happening. Like some people have different curfews, parents care differently. Some parents aren't paying attention, you know, these different waves of people leaving. But anyway, this one wave of people leaves and they're like, what happened to Tatum?

Anne:

So

Caroline:

And I'm like, yeah, somebody asks him and he is like, oh, she probably got mad at me and bailed. And I'm like, you're really lucky your garage doesn't face where everyone else's cars are parked.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Because I was like paying attention to the layout of the house, you know?

Anne:

it would make sense for him to at least pretend he's concerned,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

keep up the facade. in just that party scene. Right. The rules scene. It's such a classic moment

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

cheer and boo I love it.

Caroline:

And there's, different a DR moments with the, I'll be right back. Like with Courtney Cox when she leaves Kenny, her mouth says, keep watching.

Anne:

yeah. There's a couple little things where they

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

that. Right?

Caroline:

Yeah. But her a DR says, I'll be right back.

Anne:

I love Randy. I love his unabashed weirdness. I was just talking about this with a few of my students like yesterday, about the importance of embracing your weirdness and whatever it is you're drawn to, letting yourself be enthusiastic because I feel like a lot of teenagers hold back and I, I love Randy who's just like, I'm gonna talk about this horror movie and everyone else is leaving. I don't care. I'm gonna still watch it. I love that.

Caroline:

Me too. And I, I also love when they're in the video store that he's been fired from twice, which I also, I worked at Sam Goody in high school, so I really like love.

Anne:

been jealous of that

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

you.

Caroline:

Yeah. Is best. But yeah, when he's at the video rental store and he's like, you're right Billy. I'm the first to admit it, I would be the killer or whatever, and then Billy leaves and he is like, you're telling me that's not a killer?

Anne:

Yeah, he's he's great. He plays it so well. Having said that, Randy does potentially represent a toxic force because there's these gatekeepers of horror, message that you are not enough of a horror fan if you don't no. This obscure movie. So there is a lot of that and a lot of those people are very critical of scream.

Caroline:

You know, you just reminded me of, I was at Dunking Donuts once. I was in line with my oldest who was wearing a Pink Floyd t-shirt, and the woman in front of us had a daughter wearing a Pink Floyd t-shirt.

Anne:

Weird

Caroline:

And this was like a few years ago, so he must have been, I don't know, nine. I pointed out like, oh, hey, look, matching T-shirts. And the mom turned around and said, do you know any s the names of any of their songs

Anne:

mean.

Caroline:

Right. And I would be like, okay, high school guy, you know?

Anne:

yeah. Absolutely. Somebody probably did that to her. Hurt people. Hurt people.

Caroline:

True.

Anne:

One thing I don't get, why do you, both Tatum and Sydnee assume it's Randy? I feel like that's so dumb because they both actually know a killer's out there. was murdered and it's like, oh, Randy. Right?

Caroline:

Yeah. And what is his height? Should look that up.

Anne:

little. I reckon

Caroline:

Yeah, he's little, but I mean, a lot of times it's on the phone, but

Anne:

Yeah. Sydney walks out and to her front porch and pretends to pick her nose, knowing that the day before Casey and Steve were in fact, murdered

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

a bad decision. Speaking of murders, principal Ry,

Caroline:

Oh

Anne:

Fas

Caroline:

yes.

Anne:

two episodes in a row where we talk about the Vons because we mentioned him in our Rosemary's Baby episode because there's a character called Dr. Saperstein.

Caroline:

Oh, right. I was like, when did we talk about the fonts? But we talked about Henry Windler.

Anne:

Yeah. We talked about him.

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

this brought him back into the public consciousness. and I don't, I don't even think, really think I watched Happy Days, but I remember being really excited by this cameo.

Caroline:

me too. I did watch Happy Days.'cause Nick at night had a thing in the summers where they had like A very Brady Monday and a whatever, happy days Tuesday or whatever. And I loved those blocks watching those. I was into Henry Winkler. I was very excited to see this. And you're right, I wrote down what did Henry Winkler do before this? What was his age? So he was 57 when this was filmed. right after this, he did Water Boy and all these other, Adams.

Anne:

him back

Caroline:

I, I,

Anne:

in Barry. I loved him in Barry. Have you seen that?

Caroline:

no, I've seen one episode of Barry.

Anne:

Oh, you should watch Barry. It's great. Do you think he was right to expel those boys?

Caroline:

No suspend.

Anne:

Yeah, I agree. A little harsh. I thought also his um, he says to them is a little harsh.

Caroline:

Yeah. Your entire generation disgust me. Yeah. a bit harsh.

Anne:

your insides out and hang you from a tree so we can expose you for the heartless, desensitized little shits that you are,

Caroline:

Okay, boomer,

Anne:

yeah, it's a bit over the top. Show a little professionalism here. but yeah, I agree. They definitely needed to be punished. I don't think suspending classes was a good idea. I feel like school would be a place where people are more likely to be safe. I don't know. I'm coming from an Australian perspective But when they're at school, they're out wandering around and partying.

Caroline:

so Did you ever have anyone die when you were in high school? Who was a student?

Anne:

Absolutely. And it was not like that. what does, um, stu say? It's like Christmas around here.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

The way the kids are reacting, like we had deaths. By car accident, Growing up. And it was very somber after, you know, kids crying by lockers, speaking to guidance officers. So I guess that is speaking too, and I wanna talk about this later in terms of the deeper horrors, the way murder is sensationalized. But yeah, I found that unrealistic one thing that I found was kind of funny was, why does he have so much clothes in his closet?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Like, is he living there? You know, like, you know how like little kids think their teachers live at school and then they're shocked when they see you in the wild. Like,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

is what happened to me, principal Henry actually living there, like, he's got a lot of clothes in his closet. Speaking of old casting, Henry Winkler was 29 years old when Happy Days debuted. He's like nearing

Caroline:

Oh my God.

Anne:

So, yeah, he was definitely on the egregious side of old casting. I read that maybe it was the Weinstein Brothers, again, insisted on adding in a murder like that wasn't in the original script that it had. They'd kind of gone too long without a murder. So to keep the pacing up, they threw

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

his murder.

Caroline:

Interesting.

Anne:

I think there's one more character we haven't talked about, and that's Sydney's dad.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

If your wife was raped and murdered, would you leave your daughter home alone on the anniversary? Like even if there wasn't a murderer on the loose, which I don't think he knows about he leaves, I feel like this is a time when your child needs emotional support.

Caroline:

I I do like their cute exchange when he's like, I could have sworn I heard screaming. You know, it's, it was, it was a cute little whatever. But then, yeah, I agree. And he's at the Hilton by the airport, which just made me think of Airport Hojo and one of my favorite movies ever dropped Dead gorgeous.

Anne:

He definitely feels like sort of an afterthought way he burst outta the closet, like still tied up. He sort of is like, they've all forgotten about him too, right?

Caroline:

And she goes, dad, and she like touches her head like, oh shit, I forgot.

Anne:

Yeah. let's talk about the scariest, most disturbing part. We've already talked about Tatum's garage door death. one of the parts that I found scary was the bathroom stall scene, just because I find public bathrooms scary.

Caroline:

Did you share on our account the whole killer waiting in the car thing.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

I was like, how long is he in the stall? Because there's like girls talking shit in the bathroom before that, you know?

Anne:

Yeah. So I guess the question is, is that really ghostface? Is that Billie or Stew? Because what's the calculus here? He's just gonna hang out in a bathroom and hope that Sydney walks in. How long has he been crouching on that toilet seat? Right?

Caroline:

there so that we can think it's the police chief'cause he is got the same shoes.

Anne:

Yeah. I didn't fall for that.

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

But there's also the possibility it's not him,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

some other guy dressed up and it was like, I'm gonna jump out at the first person I see. Or the first person who's in here alone.

Caroline:

Very lucky that it was Cindy.

Anne:

I do find public restroom stalls and the idea that someone could be in there, very creepy. And I was actually in our shopping center, which is just like a mall, and it's reasonably fancy and clean and it's, it's a nice mall. It's not like a decaying, suburban mall. And I felt nervous walking into the bathroom stalls recently, I think.'cause I just watched this. another creepy moment I think is the, I want to know who I'm looking at.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And 32nd delay they realize that the camera has a 32nd delay. Those are real Oh shit moments. But we haven't talked about really the most iconic part of this movie, which is Casey's death

Caroline:

And Steve?

Anne:

and Steve Afterthought. Yeah, Steve, People are like talking more about Casey than Steve. Yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah, I feel so bad for him, especially because the guy tells her to turn off the light, and it sounds like he's really concerned for her and not himself,

Anne:

I think it's interesting because in the beginning of the conversation she's kind of being flirty and you know, chatting with a stranger and she says she doesn't have a boyfriend and then she realizes she's in danger, she's like, I have a boyfriend and he is big and he plays football and he is gonna kick the shit out of you. And I remember thinking, well this is the lie, She's

Caroline:

Mm

Anne:

she has a boyfriend to push this guy off and then it's like twist,

Caroline:

mm I loved that sweater she was wearing.

Anne:

yeah. Very J Crew.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I love that tonal shift that you get when it's just like all fun and games and then that I wanna know who I'm looking at moment.

Caroline:

Would you keep answering the phone?

Anne:

Well, because I've seen this movie and this helps me deal with my anxiety, I would be like, hang up 9 1 1

Caroline:

Right?

Anne:

Triple zero. In Australia, we don't say 9 1 1 PSA. yeah, so Barry Moore was going to be Sydney,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

the one who suggested switching to Casey. And the quote I found from her was in horror. My biggest pet peeve was that I always knew the main character was going to be slugging through at the end. What I wanted to do is to take that comfort zone away, so like Jaws and it follows both things we've covered. In previous episodes, we have a red herring protagonist, which is done most famously in psycho

Caroline:

Who is on the poster? You think she's gonna be a major part of the movie?

Anne:

So that was shocking, Blew all of our collective nineties teenage

Caroline:

Absolutely.

Anne:

I think what. Is most horrific about this is the parents Finding her and it's, I don't feel like as a teenager seeing this how bad that is. And I guess this just goes to show I'm at the age where I identify more with the mom than the murdered teen. But finding your daughter strung up like that, it is truly, truly tragic.

Caroline:

Oh God. I really always had a hard time with Casey's parents finding her, that she says, not my daughter. Not my daughter. And listening. I think that was the part that always had me really upset. there was a movie, I think it was I, for and I, with Keefer Sutherland and Sally Field, where she listens, she can hear her daughter being murdered. That, I think was the most horrifying piece where she's staying mom. And her mom is like Casey, she can hear her. She knows she's nearby and alive.

Anne:

We can't do anything. It's awful. I think this is one of the many examples of the way scream, really vacillates between fun trope, slasher, and then like serious tragedy. And I think it walks that line well and kind of subverts the gleeful way. We almost view gruesome deaths of teenagers and slashers and Casey's death deviates from that by acknowledging her humanity. Right. Do you have any questions, unanswered questions,

Caroline:

I mean, I guess I'm sort of like, yeah, I, I don't understand. And I know they get to some of it in later movies, but I really don't understand why some of these casualties occurred. You know, not all of them tie into the narrative that I remember. And I did actually decide to continue on and I, I watched up to Scream three, I think up through Scream,

Anne:

in my mind. I haven't watched them in any time recently. Which one is the one where they're making the movie? Is that Scream three? one's the one with Parker Posey?

Caroline:

that Scream Three.

Anne:

I really like that one.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

I love her. Yeah.

Caroline:

I love her too. Yeah, I think that's three.'cause I watched them both back to back, so I might be confusing them. Yeah, they're making the movie.'cause in Scream two, there's already a movie out called Stab.

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

Jada Pickett Smith dies in the first scene.

Anne:

Do you think that Stu and Billy would've gotten away with it?

Caroline:

Uh, yeah,

Anne:

You kind of think No. Well, I guess it depends on how, how good the medical examiner is. Because like, wouldn't they have noticed that Sydney's dad, this framed killer, had been bound and had duct tape on his mouth? I feel like a good Emmy would, would notice that.

Caroline:

I guess but I mean, as we were just saying, maybe they thought Maureen was raped when she wasn't. You know,

Anne:

And maybe they're shitty at this.

Caroline:

Knowing small town police officers are not usually dealing with murder.

Anne:

Yeah. Do you think horror movies can turn people into killers?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

No, because I would be,

Caroline:

Yeah, no

Anne:

I do love the way they play with that trope. movies don't create psychos

Caroline:

movies make psychos more creative.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Don't blame the movies?

Anne:

It's not gonna trigger anything that wasn't already there inside of you. Now, having said that, I did find a list of killers who claimed to have been inspired by movies or thought they were in a movie, but I think they would've done something regardless.

Caroline:

Yeah, I agree.

Anne:

So let's talk about some of the deeper horror simmering beneath the surface. Uh, Gail's bangs in later episodes.

Caroline:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne:

Which, which one does she have? The terrible bangs?

Caroline:

I think it's three. I.

Anne:

It's three. Yeah. Ooh. but to be serious, the media sensationalism around true crime and serial killers, which I suppose we're arguably contributing to by talking about, we're gonna talk about this quite a bit in our upcoming vanishing at the Cecil episode, I think Scream is exploring violence as a spectacle.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

telling that it ends with Gail talking about what happened on camera instead of Sydney, like hugging her dad or something Gail represents that double-edged sword of the media. It's important and Gail's doing important work, trying to get an innocent man off death row, but it's also potentially exploitative.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

domestic violence and, people who murder their partners. Randy comments that there's always some bullshit reason to kill your girlfriend. And obviously this plays out in real life all the time., I found a 2024 UN press release that stated that 60% of all homicides were the victims are women, were committed by an intimate partner or family member. And worldwide, one woman,, woman gets killed every 10 minutes. Um, the, uh, fallibility of witness testimony and our, and human memory, I think that's a big one that plays out in a lot of true crime. Like Sydney is so sure that her mother's murderer is caught weary and she's wrong. moral panics over things like horror movies, video games. We will be talking about this in Stranger Things Season four in relation to Satanic Panic and Dungeons and Dragons in a Future episode. But yeah, moral panics over things like horror movies and video games. Anything else

Caroline:

I mean, I think the thing of you never know what's gonna trigger someone to have you as a target,

Anne:

which we discuss in episode one on Pen Pal.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Right? that you could just fall under the gaze of a psychopath and how scary that

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

All right, I have a challenge for you. Add to Randy's rules. What horror rules did they miss? What do we need to learn? This is our survival section.

Caroline:

oh my gosh. I don't know. You have some,

Anne:

Got like 10,

Caroline:

wow. You were prepared. Yeah.

Anne:

charge your phone.

Caroline:

Mm. Call 9 1 1.

Anne:

call nine one one right away. Don't wait on that. Don't listen to the serial killer who tells you not to call 9 1 1. Don't split up buddy system. take the headshot in Zombieland. They talk about the double tap. Don't assume the killer's really down. The bathroom, check the backseat. Check the shower curtain. These all the places people sneak up on you. Stay outta the basement. don't read out loud from the book in a different language. Thank you. The mummy, run away from the house, don't come back. Sydnee comes back. There's a one point where she's like gotten away. Run and don't stop. There's this fantastic Nike ad a serial killer sneaks up on this woman in the bathroom and she runs and she's still got her running shoes on. And then she keeps running and she keeps running and the serial killer's chasing her. And it's exactly like a parody of a horror movie. But then she keeps running the serial killer starts to get tired and at the end is he's hunched over and breathing heavily because he is not fit enough to catch her

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

it's mad for Nike, you know, running stuff. And it's

Caroline:

Uh,

Anne:

my favorite out of all time. cardio.

Caroline:

Yeah, I love that part of super bet. My husband quotes it all the time when he is like, this is the fastest kid alive. Like,

Anne:

Okay. I love super bad. and most importantly, what do you think my most important horror rule would be?

Caroline:

it's not, call 9 1 1 or zero, zero zero, whatever. What

Anne:

Don't play with the Ouija board. Said it multiple times. Don't mess with that. All right. Do you have any criticism?

Caroline:

Yeah. Okay. one of my pet peeves, which I don't think we've gotten to discuss yet. The phrase deja vu all over again drives me insane.

Anne:

But isn't that why it's funny, like they're

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

redundant on purpose when they say that

Caroline:

But I don't think everyone is like I, do know that that is the intention, but it is a, like TI think the words like tology or something where it's just like, it's unnecessary redundancy doesn't add any value. And I saw something once upon a time that was like, millennials hate inefficiency. And I think that's why she's like, irks me. It's like so inefficient. Anyway, okay, so that was one thing I also didn't like, you know, Casey, to the point you were just making, she sees her mom pull into the driveway or whatever, she stops running and he jumps through the window, don't stop. throw the phone, throw something, get their attention. the other thing I don't love Nev Campbell. Doesn't do any stunts. Clearly. she's very obviously got a stunt double, and I guess I've just been spoiled by Tom Holland. I don't know, these weren't insane stunts. I also hate in the end when he says, this is the part where the killer comes back for one final scare, and Billy does, and then she shoots him in the head and says, not in my movie, but it did happen in your movie.

Anne:

Yeah. Well, I guess, the final scare is not allowed to proceed because she takes'em out immediately.

Caroline:

Okay, well that's not what she said.

Anne:

Yeah. Okay. Good point. Good point. That's fair.

Caroline:

that's it.

Anne:

I don't really have much. I actually went to IMDB and I looked up one star reviews to see if anyone would point out something that I like

Caroline:

Ooh, fun.

Anne:

with. It's

Caroline:

They do this on, how did this get made? They read re, they read the five star reviews go.

Anne:

read the One Star Reviews. There were some very funny takes. I do think representation is an issue here. It's all pretty rich white people.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

so that's something, know, just very common in movies of that era to not be thinking about diversity and including people from different perspectives and backgrounds.

Caroline:

They do actually touch on that in one of the sequels, at least

Anne:

I gotta get watching

Caroline:

I think, multiple sequels. They discuss that

Anne:

it. Yeah. Um,

Caroline:

Leave Schreiber.

Anne:

yeah, you know, I thought he was in it more.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

a surprise for me that he was just this tiny sliver of a Yeah. I must have been thinking of him in Scream Two as more

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Pal Cleanser.

Caroline:

Okay. So I have, a couple pal cleansers. One is super personal, but my niece got engaged yesterday. Congratulations, Hannah and Eli. I am very, very happy. So, I just wanted to shout that out. It's something that's making me happy this week or whatever.

Anne:

Congratulations.

Caroline:

And then on TikTok, the algorithm really knows me. I have been fed up a handle called the Scenic Pickle and it is a pickle in nature set to nineties grunge music, like just over and over different scenes of a pickle hanging out in nature to awesome bangers from the nineties. So, I gave it a follow and highly recommend.

Anne:

Who comes up with these things?

Caroline:

I know it's amazing.

Anne:

My palate cleanser is just dogs. I was taking care of my in-laws and my brother-in-law's dogs in addition to my own. So we had like a crazy black lab and a chocolate lab puppy, and it was just absolutely chaotic at my house. Barking, mysterious smells, tails, knocking drinks off coffee tables, ferocious games of tug of war, and I loved it. I want them all. I had to give them back. So we've had some feedback that some people love our recommendations and others think we go on for too long, which is fair. but we both just love hyping up our favorite movies, books, TV shows, podcasts, influencers. So we decided to shift recommendations to after homework from now on. If you wanna turn off after, that's fine, but if you enjoy recommendations, keep listening. So our homework is the vanishing at the Cecil, which was a response to Rosemary's Baby. And after that we're planning to get to our Stranger Things episode, which will be focused just on season four. before Season five is released. There's actually a lot of connections to scream and Steven Season one, both climb through their girlfriend's windows, both explore moral panics. Both reference a lot of classic horror. Scream is obviously mostly about Halloween and Stranger Things Nightmare on Elm Street and both have bad Billies,

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

so get watching. All right. Recommendations. Caroline, what recommendations do you have?

Caroline:

Okay. So, I wrote down since we started watching the Buffy the Vampire movie. I don't remember why that came up in our conversation, but definitely recommend that. also, the craft, as I mentioned earlier, and then my favorite Drew Barry Moore movie is ever after, um, which. I wanna highly recommend, also other great nineties high school things where the people are way older. Cruel intentions where there's a great house party, can't hardly wait. 10 things I hate about you obviously. and she's all that, all the nineties beauties. I wanted to shout out and recommend. That's kind of it that I had.

Anne:

That's, I mentioned the podcast Faculty of Horror. I highly recommend it if you really want to dive in a more academic way. On horror, scream is slasher satire, so you might wanna try some other horror films that play with tropes. Cabin in the Woods is so, so good. Tucker and Dale versus Evil Strays more into Parody, but it's about that sort of backwoods horror you get in movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but like nice people and they don't understand why these teenagers think they're trying to kill them. It's, have you seen it? It's so cute.

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

We will watch it at some point. Obviously, scary movie because

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

direct spoof of Scream, scream is very articulate about film, and the writer is Kevin Williamson. So Dawson's Creek, other 90 Slashers Halloween, H2O, which I'm pretty sure has a bathroom stall scene that scared me as a teenager I Know What you did last summer. Scream, sequels, urban legend, disturbing behavior, the faculty, all those fun ones. Psycho for another slasher with a villain with mommy issues, and a main character who gets killed off early. If you're looking for something to read, a book called The Final Girl Support Club by Greedy Hendrix. it refers to all these movies it's as if. These murders actually happened. Like there was a serial killer who did this thing and these girls have survived and now they're older and they're traumatized and somebody starts picking them off. And it plays with those tropes in a really fun way. might do it at some point, and of course Party of Five for Nev Campbell Mean Girls because Gail Weathers is definitely a mean girl.

Caroline:

We, I, we have recommended me girls so many times.

Anne:

Always.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

do you have anything else?

Caroline:

Well, I was thinking, parks and Rec, Henry, Henry ler Dr. Saperstein, which we've recommended a bunch of times too. and disturbing behavior. I was thinking of that line that I love. What does that meet The musical little creatures that live among the flowers or whatever, the line that she keeps repeating over and over again. It's so good.

Anne:

have to watch it again so I can find out. Okay. Thanks for listening. Please do all the things podcast devs ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook or threads. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com, write a review, and most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend about us. Word of mouth is the best advertisement. If like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn To Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.

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