Drawn to Darkness

16 - Rosemary's Baby with Mia Farrow

• Anne Azano • Episode 16

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Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, where we deep dive into our favourite horror and true crime media.

This week, we discuss Rosemary’s Baby, the 1968 horror classic that turned pregnancy into psychological nightmare fuel. We unpack gaslighting husbands, demonic covens, and the claustrophobia of a New York apartment with a high incidence of unfortunate happenings. Rosemary and her husband Guy move into a grand old New York apartment, despite eerie warnings and a mysteriously blocked closet. Their eccentric neighbours, Minnie and Roman Castevet, quickly insinuate themselves into their lives, and things turn sinister fast. We'll discuss topics such as the film’s sound design, use of colour (so much yellow), and 1960s gender politics, and reveal how Rosemary’s Baby captures both supernatural and all-too-real horrors: isolation, gaslighting, and the weaponisation of female hysteria.

Along the way, we talk Mia Farrow’s wide-eyed innocence, the garish glory of Minnie Castevet’s coconut cake hat and make-up, Polanski’s problematic legacy and whether you can separate art from the artist, and how much an apartment in the Dakota really costs.

Spoiler + Content Warning:

We cover the entire plot of Rosemary’s Baby (1968), including the final reveal.

This episode contains discussions of marital rape, coercive control, gaslighting, manipulation, and assault, as well as pregnancy, child loss, and labour trauma. There is also suicide, murder, and satanic ritual. We also discuss director Roman Polanski’s history of sexual abuse, including the rape of a minor.

Palate Cleanser:

Need a breather after all that satanic motherhood and 1960s misogyny? Try these:

  • 30 Rock – because Rosemary tried to meet Hutch there, and we all deserve Liz Lemon energy after this.
  • Again With This podcast – episode-by-episode takes on Dawson’s Creek and Beverly Hills, 90210 for nostalgic serotonin.
  • Parks and Recreation – for a better Dr. Saperstein.

Recommendations:

  • The novel Rosemary's Baby by Ira Levin. See where the story came from.
  • To see the actors in other films, try Harold and Maude and Beethoven and Roseanne.
  • Gossip Girl, because Blair and Dan watch Rosemary's Baby. 
  • Hereditary – modern motherhood horror with a satanic twist. For more  demonic horror try The Exorcist and the Omen.
  • Get Out – paranoia, gaslighting, and dreamlike dread.
  • Episode 55 of MFM - the Papin sisters
  • The Handmaid’s Tale – dystopian nightmare of reproductive control 
  • Mother! – another pregnancy-from-hell allegory (brace yourself. It's brutal).
  • Gaslight (1944) – the original manipulative husband horror.
  • You Must Remember This podcast – Hollywood history and Manson murders.
  • A Picture of Dorian Gray and The Little Mermaid for deals with the devil.
  • Apartment seven A - a prequel with Julia Garner. 
  • Annabel, Only Murders in the Building and Archive 81 for creepy buildings
  • Immaculate with Sydney Sweeney for pregnancy horror
  • Samantha Gailey's book The Girl: A Life in the Shadow of Roman Polanski

Homework

Next episode,  a Halloween bonus: Scream (1996) – because after all that satanic trauma, we deserve some self-aware slashers. After that, The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel,  the haunting true story of Elisa Lam and the cursed Los Angeles hotel.

Follow, review, share, and send your own horror recs to  DrawnToDarknessPod@gmail.com. And remember—if your neighbour insists on bringing you

Anne:

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you're starting to get concerned about the antichrist, we're here for you. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows and books.

Caroline:

And my name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne:

Caroline, do you enjoy being pregnant?

Caroline:

I I, no,

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

I was gonna try to come up with a thoughtful answer to that, but, but I think the answer is just no. I know there are people who loved it. You didn't like it either, right?

Anne:

No, I hated it. I

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

a close friend here who loves it. She kind of jokes around about offering to be, a surrogate for people just because she loves being pregnant. She's like, I hate having kids, but she's, she's like, I don't know why I did this, but she likes being pregnant. that's not me. I hated it. I hate it the way I looked. I hated that I couldn't run. I hated that none of my clothes fit. and labor is horrendous. It's awful. The reason we're talking about this today is that we are discussing the horror film. Rosemary's baby. we get too far into it, I just wanted to give a content warning. There is coercive control, manipulation, gaslighting, pregnancy, labor, assault, possible suicide, and as usual, we will be spoiling it. So go watch it. back. Here we go. Rosemary and her struggling actor, husband guy, rent an apartment in the Branford, a grand old New York building, despite early red flags, like a mysterious closet, blocked by an armoire Rosemary befriends neighbor Terry. A young woman taken in off the streets by the castavets, who soon dies in a suspicious suicide. This leads Rosemary and guy to meet the intrusive castavets, who quickly draw guy into their circle. After eating chocolate mousse or mouse from Mrs. Caste, Rosemary passes out and dreams of being raped by the devil. While the cast of its and strangers and her husband look on, she wakes up scratched and confused, and guy claims he slept with her while she was unconscious because he didn't want to miss baby night. dismisses the demonic assault as a nightmare, or I suppose, her brain processing marital rape. Soon she's pregnant, but the pregnancy is painful and dangerous. Dr. Saperstein, recommended by the castavets, is dismissive and ignores her concerns. Rosemary goes convinced they're part of a coven that wants her child for sacrifice she seeks out another Dr. Guy and the castavets drag her back and she goes into labor she wakes up, she's told her baby has died, but she hears an infant crying through the walls. The blocked closet turns out to be a passage to the cave's apartment where she finds her baby lying in a black bassinet under an inverted cross. Roman cavet reveals that the baby is Satan's offspring and the coven begins to chant Hail Satan. Though horrified Rosemary feels drawn to comfort her crying child and ends with her rocking the baby in the bassinet. So I chose this a reaction to Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrah, which is, two episodes ago, not our previous episode on the yellow wallpaper. But how well does it pair with the yellow wallpaper, which I didn't even realize.

Caroline:

I found it surprising that when I was trying to look up, what does yellow mean? That there's discussion of yellow being used in Rosemary's baby. But none of the things that I quickly looked at referenced the yellow wallpaper, which really shocked me. not only was there an overwhelming amount of yellow, but The places where yellow occurs and there's yellow wallpaper, like I felt were so fitting, you know?

Anne:

I did Google the yellow wallpaper, Rosemary's baby, because I was like, clearly there's a connection. I did find a few things, but there's not much. So I wonder, is this just another glitch in the Matrix or was, whoever doing the of the apartment Roman Lansky very aware of this and, making an allusion to the yellow wallpaper.'cause yeah, as you said, there's towels, there's dresses, there's baby clothes, there's sheets, there's wallpaper. Then you also have, gaslighting husbands, doctors, a woman who is kind of cloistered away, labeled hysterical. Both make attempts at freedom and are trapped. Rosemary is cut off from her friends. the narrator of the yellow wallpaper. They aren't believed about their pain, and both are discouraged from intellectual pursuits. Like Rosemary is told, don't read about pregnancy. Her husband throws her book away and the protagonist from the yellow wallpaper is told not to write, so it's too perfect, right?

Caroline:

It really is. I, I wonder if there's like a subconscious element to it if it wasn't intentional. there's like yellow wallpaper on the shelves in the closet that you mentioned.

Anne:

How cute is Rosemary when she is so excited about the contact paper that she's put on those shelves and she's like, ta-da.

Caroline:

I mean, did you have like papered shelves?

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

I don't,

Anne:

but.

Caroline:

I don't think I did. My grandparents' house had it like contact paper or whatever on the shelves.

Anne:

You know, actually, now that you say that, I think it was my grandparents' house, not our house. So maybe it's just that one generation back. Before we get too much into the best apartment glow up of all time, what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline:

I I mean, horrifying. I I did actually go back to see if I had used that as my primary adjective yet, I know we use it a lot, but it was, I nightmare fuel basically.

Anne:

definitely. Yeah, I was gonna say creepy. Huh? Just kidding. I know we overuse creepy. Um, I know I can do better than that. I was gonna go with foreboding and unsettling and I read Penelope Gilead Git, a film critic of the New Yorker, described it as a gynecological gothic, which I thought was than anything we've come up with.

Caroline:

Yeah, for sure.

Anne:

so other than the yellow wallpaper, this is the oldest thing we've covered. I guess the next oldest would be Carrie and then Jaws. So we've actually covered quite a few old things. Baby falls into that small category of classic horror that is actually critically acclaimed and recognized. It's in the Criterion Collection. It was nominated, for writing, and Ruth Gordon won an Oscar. Ruth Gordon's the actress who plays mini cast a best supporting actress. Mia Farrah was also nominated for Golden Globe and bafta, I don't know if you want it. Some fun facts. the, I guess, can you have a fun fact about a rape scene? But the rape scene was inspired by Polanski and Sharon Tate's use of LSD. Another interesting thing that happened on the set was Frank Sinatra served Mia Faroh divorce papers on the set of that movie because she wanted to keep filming and he wanted her to come do some other movie. So what a jerk he is. The movie is based on the novel by I 11 who also wrote The Stepford Wives, the boys from Brazil, and one of my favorite dystopian novels that I used to love as a kid, this perfect day. he also says that he feels guilty that Rosemary's baby led to movies like The Exorcist and The Omen, and that a whole generation has been exposed and has more belief in Satan. So I thought that was just kind of interesting, a little bit of regret.

Caroline:

I

Anne:

Peter Benchley also regretted writing Jaws because of how it led to the demonization of Sharks.

Caroline:

I actually have fun facts as and one of them is very relevant to what you just said. I kept thinking, like watching this, how meta it was.'cause anyone who has been listening to us so far knows that anytime we're talking about something we're like. Referencing other movies, plays, shows or whatever. And I don't feel like I've watched many movies that reference other pieces of art as often as this one does. So I was trying to like research what is the play Luther about? What is the, nobody loves in Albatross about what is the movie The Fantastics about, et cetera. And Robert Shaw had been the lead on the stage play of Luther. Yes.

Anne:

What is Luther about? Is it like a religious thing like

Caroline:

It's about Martin Luther. Yeah. It's a play about Martin Luther. Yeah. so that one I was like, oh, well there's definitely connection there with, nobody likes an albatross. It's a satirical comedy. I couldn't find a ton of summaries that would go deeper on what it's about than that. It's a satirical comedy. But I looked up the meaning of, when someone calls someone an albatross, And it's, essentially an inescapable burden,

Anne:

As is motherhood,

Caroline:

right? Yeah.

Anne:

which is kind of what happens in this movie.

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

apparently this is a very faithful adaptation of the novel. Like one of the most faithful, so I wonder if that was Ira Levin's inclusions these plays that guy was in or lansky's on the rewrite.'cause there was a lot of rewriting of the script, I guess. But it is faithful. Well, let's talk about the setting. We see a New Year's Eve party in 1966, which is around the time Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan. There was that God is Dead Time Magazine cover that Rosemary sees in Dr. Saperstein's office. I meant to go find that and read it, but I didn't get around to it. So it's a time of religious decline. also a time when that free love counterculture of the sixties is on the rise. a lot of LSD happening, time of more independence for women, birth control existed. I think another interesting thing about the setting is that Charles Manson's family would go on to murder Roman Polanski's wife, Sharon Tate a few years later in 1969, shortly after this came out. So I think all that's kind of important historical context to think about as we discuss this.

Caroline:

Yeah. And she's in the party scene.

Anne:

Is she,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

is she like the most beautiful one in the

Caroline:

Yes. Yep. Of course. She's stunning.

Anne:

I was like, these women that Rosemary hangs out with are so gorgeous.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Other important setting is not just the time, but the place. It's New York. the exterior is the Dakota, which is the building in real life, where people like Leonard Bernstein, Judy Garland lived, and Yoko Ono and John Lennon and John Lennon was killed outside of it in 1980. there's a 30 rock scene. I half expected, Liz Lemon and Jack to walk by.

Caroline:

I don't remember that'cause I've only gone through 30 Rock once.

Anne:

Oh, okay. So 30 rocks like my comfort show. That apartment. What did you think about her apartment glow up?

Caroline:

Well, as I'm sure you can imagine, I did look up how much it costs to live at the Dakota. it's about$12,000 a month, for the cheaper side. You can buy apartments for like upwards of$9 million, I think on the low end. was looking up, that's now,

Anne:

what it Okay?

Caroline:

that's now. But in terms of inflation, I also looked up like, now how much do Broadway actors make? Uh,

Anne:

much.

Caroline:

no. I mean, on the low end it's 40 5K. On the high end it's 220 k, which is still not enough money to be renting a$12,000 a month apartment. They definitely make a point to talk about how the building is under construction. The tiles are missing from the floor in the hallway. There's guys like screwing things on. It's still a massive amount of square footage. I mean, you will recall having visited me in Manhattan, in my

Anne:

was nothing like that.

Caroline:

apartment, which was 400 square feet that I shared with a roommate. and it was still half my salary and I had a big corporate job.

Anne:

Yeah. And this apartment is so Gorgeous. It's

Caroline:

Gorgeous.

Anne:

and clean and bright and airy with big, high ceilings. it really speaks to the wonders of a fresh coat of paint, right?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

It was so heavy when you first see it. And I think that's interesting because, a dark, heavy full of antiques, that's where you expect gothic horror from the original decor. Not after Rosemary redecorate, but it's still is the place where she becomes trapped. Polanski said he wanted the apartment to always be overwhelming Rosemary, to have an even curve if we can do that. So the walls are enveloping her.

Caroline:

Mm,

Anne:

And it is the place where she spends the vast majority of her time. We only see her go out a few times, like when she attempts to see Hutch at 30 Rock or she goes to see Dr. Hill. And she's pretty swiftly collected and brought back every time

Caroline:

Yeah, I noted that'cause I watched it a second time and I was even paying attention to, like, she mentions to Dr. Saperstein that she's not gonna go out anymore, after her last time out at one point.

Anne:

so I thought the sound design was really great, the contrast between silence and unsettling music. my. part, I think, of the music is there's this really creepy music when she's sneaking around the apartment with a knife just before she finds the entrance to the castavets, and then guy walks in, the music immediately stops, and we can hear them both moving around the apartment, which makes that need for her to be silent, so necessary and tense. And also just, and again, I've never lived in New York. But she, you can hear the horns beeping and the background noise all the time when she's in that apartment.

Caroline:

it is interesting the use of the sound traveling through the wall the moments when that occurs versus not. That 400 square foot apartment did not have the thickest walls it was a much more constant drumbeat of noise than being able to, every now and then hear someone play piano, from the neighbors.

Anne:

That sound that's coming through the walls is also,, a lot of foreshadowing and early hints. Like, we've got the moved armoire, the she has about the nun where, mini casta says something and she's processing it. We hear chanting through the wall. That is obviously something Satanic. So there's a lot of foreshadowing, during the New Year's Eve party, Roman comments that it's like year one, right? 1966. And if you invert that 9 1 6, 6, 6, right? there's that moment where the baby hurting her and she's going, it's alive. It's alive. And I feel like that's gotta be a Frankenstein reference alive, is referring that the monster is alive and she's got a monster in her stomach. I also enjoy the use of color. obviously we've talked about the yellow, but there's a lot of red as well. Like she's wearing red the night she's raped. and she's kind of wearing yellow when she's feeling good, I guess.

Caroline:

Speaking of color, there's a lot of that all over. Mini kete. It's face. pretty constantly. her hair too.

Anne:

is garish. Oh

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

When

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

shows up and she's wearing that like, coconut cake hat. It's like feathers.

Caroline:

Well, that's when they find, Not Victoria Ventry. Who is Victoria Ventry. When they find,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

when they find her she's wearing that. Yeah. And he's also, Roman's outfit is also super colorful.

Anne:

Yeah. He's wearing red pants, a pink jacket, and like the most dapper hat you've ever seen Like, it's so funny. and I guess what I love about that is don't expect someone in such a ridiculous outfit to be worshiping Satan. Right?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

she's this flamboyant old New York woman she's gaudy, she's got like a two, two apron on at one point and saying eyeshadow, she's so abrasive. yeah, you just don't expect these people to be shouting Hail Satan.

Caroline:

one, one comment I also had about that scene. and I know we're, we're more toward talking about color, but in that scene he mentions not Victoria Ventry, who is Victoria Ventry being, depressed lately or like going through waves of depression. And he's like, I tried to mention it to her, but she poo-pooed me. Is that a phrase you ever say

Anne:

I, I say poo poo. I do,

Caroline:

You do.

Anne:

I do. Yeah.

Caroline:

That's adorable. I need to start doing that.

Anne:

somebody poo-pooed it. Yeah.

Caroline:

Oh my God.

Anne:

don't Yuck. My yum. Don't spoil my ghost. Salinas

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

something.

Caroline:

You say make love.

Anne:

Ugh. No,

Caroline:

Yeah. Okay, good. Just wanted to make sure, because that was the other phrase I wrote down that I was like, who says that?

Anne:

but she's like, guy, let's make love.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

The one other literary device I wanted to point out was the use of reflections. At one point she sees a reflection of herself eating raw meat in the toaster and she's just like disgusted with herself. But my favorite use of reflection is that same 30 rock scene where she is waiting for Hutch and she starts looking at a window display and it's a nativity scene, like, She sees her reflection in that window. And really what is happening to her is this dark reflection of Mary's conception and the birth of Jesus. Like the final scene with the bassinet is a perversion of a nativity scene as people come to see that baby and they start shouting hail Satan. And then you've got that,, contrast between the room she prepared for the baby, which is bright and sunny and yellow, and then the black bassinet. So I thought that was really effective. Also just like horror tropes. The hidden closet, the basement laundry, the weird chanting through the walls. A building with a past, a deal with the devil, A dream that actually isn't a dream. Establishing a lot of that we continue to see in horror movies today. Shall we talk about characters? We've already talked a little bit about, Minnie and Roman Cavet, but let's talk about the main character, Rosemary. What did you think of Mia Pharaoh in this role?

Caroline:

I thought she was adorable. I do also feel like I need to apologize a bit to, oh my God, now I'm all of a sudden having a brain fart.

Anne:

Ron and Pharaoh.

Caroline:

Yes. Ronan Pharaoh. Sorry, I was thinking Roman Pharaoh and I was like, it's not Roman Pharaoh. I need to apologize to Ronan Pharaoh because in addition to looking like Frank Sinatra, which he does especially when she gets that haircut, he looks exactly like her. And I have a child that looks exactly like me, like my Google photos confuse us. So you know, maybe Woody Allen is his dad, who knows

Anne:

Maybe Mia Faroh just has some really strong genes.

Caroline:

for that child even, because my other two kids don't look like me at all, you know? So,

Anne:

no, one's accusing you of sleeping with Frank Sinatra.

Caroline:

no.

Anne:

I mean, I thought she was great for a character whose motivations are so limited. You know, she's of course gorgeous, you know, she's got those Disney, Pixar Doe eyes as an Avengers fan. Did she remind you of Piper in Iron Man Avengers before she cuts her hair? I think she really looks like Gwyneth

Caroline:

You mean pepper?

Anne:

pepper?

Caroline:

Yeah, pepper, pepper pots. I do think she looks like Gwyneth, but Pepper Potts is such like a strong, take no shit woman. And think there's,

Anne:

a lot of shit.

Caroline:

yeah, there's moments where Rosemary like pushes back, but essentially she's very like dependent upon. Guy, she definitely gets walked all over. I also felt like her, I don't know, pronunciation was very old school it reminded me of the way people talked in movies in a way that they don't do anymore. it's less natural. Yeah, Less natural,

Anne:

Yeah. I see that. She's like a Catholic country girl at heart., We get the impression she went to Catholic school'cause she's having those dreams about the nuns. And I guess in terms of motivation, the main thing she wants is to make a harm. And have babies. one thing she says that I identify with when she has the fireplace, she says, I hope we have the coldest winter ever she just wants to be cozy by the fireplace, which is, kind of my dream. I don't know why I moved to one of the

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

in the world.

Caroline:

seriously.

Anne:

Yeah. I don't know. What was I thinking? And of course she just, you know, she wants babies and it's that desire that is very much manipulated by everyone around her, making her into this anti Madonna, by giving birth to Satan's child rather than God's. Her name's Mary, right? Rosemary?

Caroline:

right? You were saying she's a country Catholic girl. I was trying to do some research on like how common is it to be Catholic in Nebraska in the sixties?'cause I really didn't think Catholicism would've been very strong there. I couldn't find that statistic. It does seem like it's a smaller percentage. I thought it was interesting that she was from Nebraska and he was from Baltimore, and Baltimore's a very Catholic city, you know,

Anne:

they should have made it from

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

Lots of Catholics there.

Caroline:

but not a lot of country girls I guess.

Anne:

No, no. I think they wanted that wide-eyed innocence from

Caroline:

Totally. Yeah.

Anne:

and I have read the book, but it was so long ago, I don't really remember it. A lot of that is probably fleshed out more in the novel that just things that had to be cut in the transition between book and film. I think the contrast between when she's feeling good and healthy and when she's in those early stages of pregnancy are so striking. And you see it with the yellow, like she's wearing that cute little flower child, yellow dress. She's glowing and then you see her looking just absolutely ghastly.

Caroline:

Yeah. I love that. What is it, like ALINE or whatever, I don't know a lot of clothing terminology, but that straight, yeah, she might.

Anne:

we're right. I think it's Aline.

Caroline:

I think she might have two of them. They're like, it's yellow floral. But I remember buying one like that from a vintage store so that it could be Jan Brady for Halloween

Anne:

I

Caroline:

one year,

Anne:

dress, and I feel like it's

Caroline:

is it?

Anne:

is feeling good. Like she starts off wearing it?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

she feels terrible, and then she starts wearing it again when she starts to feel good again. Is it Hutch that says she looks like a piece of chalk? Somebody says she looks like a piece of chalk.

Caroline:

Yeah. And it was like right after she got her hair cut at Vial Sassoon, and

Anne:

Oh.

Caroline:

I felt so bad for her that everyone just kept telling her how terrible she looked. Then I thought it was so sweet and very reflective of the contrast between guys sort of, Impression of the role that she plays in his life versus Hutch. Guys, like you're here to sort of serve my needs. And Hutch has genuine concern for her. So while Guy is essentially like Graham Chase, it shows your ears more when you got your hair cut or whatever. Hutch is like, no, no, no, it's not about your hair. How, much weight have you lost? You look pale, and a genuine concern for her wellbeing and health. By the way, that was a my so-called life preference.

Anne:

Okay. Guy is so mean to her about her hair. tell me you paid for that. That's the worst mistake you've ever made. he does not hold back.

Caroline:

what an asshole.

Anne:

He's so mean. do you think she lost weight for this? Like she, she does look like a piece of chalk. But she was

Caroline:

She's

Anne:

to begin with. Maybe they just

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

gray.

Caroline:

And everyone was skinny in the seventies, I feel like when I was watching it again the second time, I was trying to see did she actually lose weight or was it a lot of makeup and lighting'cause she has like circles under her eyes and all that.

Anne:

I remember throwing my clothes on the floor in an absolute huff because I thought I looked terrible and my husband was at least nice enough to pretend I didn't, know? And but everyone in Rosemary's baby, like nobody's pretending that. she looks all right and, she's bird bones to begin with, but yeah, she's like skeletal in this,

Caroline:

Yeah. And in the nineties there were a lot of people I knew that cut their hair short to look like Kelly Taylor the pixie cut. And it, you know,

Anne:

blue,

Caroline:

it doesn't work for everyone.

Anne:

I think it works for her though. The haircut doesn't look bad. She looks

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

she's. You know, wasting away

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

got a demon baby inside her so all these jabs at her is like death of her spirit by a thousand cuts and her sanity, right? She's being gaslit and criticized for everything she's isolated. Then when she finally pushes back with that haircut guy says it's her biggest mistake. And I think, marrying guy is probably her biggest mistake. He's such a dick. I do like when she finally starts to push back against both Minnie and Guy, like when she has the party and she's like, it's a special party. You have to be under 60 to get in. She shows a bit of sass from time to time. And I was like, yes. Have your party with your real friends. But yeah, all these attempts to, get help to reach out to Deis, isolate herself, in the doors shutting in her face again. Shall we talk about Guy?

Caroline:

Must we? I'm just kidding.

Anne:

You said the exact same thing about, somebody we talked about that you didn't wanna talk about. I can't remember.

Caroline:

yeah, probably.

Anne:

well, once again, the call is coming from inside the house with Guy. Did you find him good looking?

Caroline:

No. Did you

Anne:

No, I guess he's sixties

Caroline:

like,

Anne:

I don't know because I was listening to some podcast and they were like, he's so sexy. And I was like, what? I mean, you know. hate him so much, but

Caroline:

I guess it must be like, keep wanting to say Tom Brady, and it's not Tom Brady. The stranger beside me.

Anne:

um, Ted Bundy.

Caroline:

yeah, it's not Tom Brady, it's Ted Bundy. Tom Brady is actually hot, but also kind of a piece of shit. no,

Anne:

guy.

Caroline:

or guy, You know, everyone talks about how hot Ted Bundy was. And I remember seeing pictures of him, being like,

Anne:

hot

Caroline:

really? Like, he's lucky Zach Efron played him,

Anne:

sixties, hot seventies hot, I guess is what's going on here.

Caroline:

I guess

Anne:

Well, guy

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

preoccupied obviously a liar. he's, susceptible to flattery. He falls hard for Romans flattery. He cuts her off from her gorgeous friends, just like John and the yellow wallpaper. He gaslights her. And he's also constantly like leaving, when she's bummed out that Hutch says she looks terrible, guy's like, whatever, I'm getting the paper And then he is dashing out for an ice cream cone, but clearly actually going to see the cast of events, he's just leaving her alone a lot. Yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah. Which I know was kind of a thing that husbands did then, I guess. I think at that point that you just mentioned, he was taking the glove over there, wasn't he?

Anne:

Yeah. yeah, with the ice cream cone, it's definitely to go tell the cast of something. There's this sense of idleness at home when he's out at the all the time. Like, she's so dependent on him. She cleans, she puts contact paper on shelves. And everything nice that he does, like when he's like, let's have a baby. It's like he's doing Rosemary a favor and she's just grateful for these crumbs. But obviously his worst sin is that he offers his wife up as a sacrificial rape victim for the devil selling her body for a chance to become a successful actor, which I think ties into a lot of, other texts about ambition, for example, like how far he's willing to go. Sort of a Macbeth theme. I know I keep bringing up Macbeth. Like at the end when he tries to explain himself, he's like, we're getting so much in return. And I love that she spits in his face at that moment.

Caroline:

Oh my God. I am very grossed out by saliva, so I was like, ugh, I gagged actually when that happened. he does, I know he didn't actually rape her. He served her up to be raped by the devil. you know, and she's like, when I was out you did this. And he's like, it was fun in a efile sort of way. And I'm like, what the fuck? Like, I can't imagine having this conversation with my husband, and like, it's okay.

Anne:

rape, which again, he didn't actually do it, it's. Really disturbing because that's real, right? Like that happens and know, doing that to someone who's passed out unwell is so wrong. And she, just because she's a product of her times and you know, I guess has been, gaslit into kind of accepting all this, she just kind of moves on as if he has a right to do that.

Caroline:

And I did look up because of this, when marital rape became a crime. a prosecutable crime. and in the seventies it was legal in all 50 states for a husband to

Anne:

think I read it changed in

Caroline:

assault his wife. by 1993, it was illegal in all 50 states. So it has definitely been a state by state progression. But at the point of this movie, it was not against the law.

Anne:

only really in recent years that it even existed as a concept. And it's interesting here, and I wanna get into Roman Polanski himself the end of the episode, but is very clear that this is wrong, The way she reacts. So a man who knows this is wrong also is a man who's accused of drugging and raping a 13-year-old girl. So there's this real disconnect in the way he depicts the horror of rape yet went on to take advantage of women throughout his life. So we'll get into that more later, but, I thought that was interesting.

Caroline:

Yeah, it's definitely interesting, but he is taking an existing piece of work and just making it come to light, you know?

Anne:

You know, sometimes it's these more the null forms of abuse and course of control that are the most disturbing because they're real. You The mundane, everyday horrors of a manipulative. Gaslighting husband are in some ways more horrifying than the Satanic, unbelievable aspects of this. what do you think are his worst moments offering her up to be raped?

Caroline:

I think all the times when he is arguing with her, well, when he's actively gaslighting her, like with the moose or mice, mouse, whatever, when he is trying to create a situation. Vo her essentially and turn things around so that she becomes the offender instead of the victim. And she bends to his will essentially. He really artfully knows how to do that, and he does it several times. And with the book too,

Anne:

The book is unforgivable. You never

Caroline:

it really is.

Anne:

you asshole. Straight to jail.

Caroline:

It's so funny'cause you and I have very different like reasons that, because I was like, that was a gift from a person that she loved that died. I, it sort of didn't matter to me that it was book it, it mattered to me that it was like a keepsake, I just had my high school reunion and I wore my fourth grade field day T-shirt

Anne:

my God.

Caroline:

to it because I still had it, I'm a keepsake person. And so when that happened, I was horrified. Horrified.

Anne:

by that. that she hadn't finished reading it.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

but mousse thing, as you said, he's implying that she's difficult. Nothing is ever enough. He's like, eat it. It's delicious. There's always something wrong. He's such a bully and we know why he wants to do that because it's drugged. But the way she accepts it, she's like, all right, whatever. Like if you wanna be like that and she fakes that, she's eaten it. that must be somewhat of a regular occurrence in her life for him to be like that.

Caroline:

Totally. sorry. Back to terms that I have never used. Have you ever said under tastes

Anne:

I think so. I dunno if I've ever said it, but I feel like I

Caroline:

really?

Anne:

know. that word

Caroline:

I would say aftertaste maybe.

Anne:

underlying as opposed to,

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

me as weird. the other moment that I really hate him in is when she's finally gotten some support from her friends who are like. This isn't normal. You need to get a second opinion. And he calls them all bitches repeatedly. And, like, all I want is a second opinion. And he's like, oh, it's not fair to Dr. Saperstein's. Like, what? You know, like, why would you care so

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

So that was, I think, particularly infuriating when he won't let her get that second opinion. And then that's the moment when she stops the pain. And I Do you, what do you think about what's going on there? why does the pain stop in that moment?

Caroline:

I wish I knew I mean, I know they can hear each other when they're in the bedroom, but I don't think they can hear each other when they're in the kitchen, which is where they were having that fight. So I really don't know if it's just poor luck on her part that that occurred.

Anne:

I'm wondering how much agency the son of Satan has. Right. Like if he's like, oh geez, I'm pushing this woman too far. I need to take it down a

Caroline:

Mm,

Anne:

And you know, she feels good for the rest of the time. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't feel like the cast of its have that much

Caroline:

oh, sorry. Something just occurred to me that they were fighting and I don't think there's other scenes where they're actively fighting. And I wonder if the devil, you know, the son of the devil is fueled by the anger and appeased. like if that was the problem all along, was that she didn't have enough hate and frustration and anger in her heart

Anne:

But then they don't

Caroline:

to be a host, an appropriate host

Anne:

like the rest of the time, up until she starts to figure things out, like everything's kind of going okay for her.

Caroline:

yeah, that's true.

Anne:

Another bad guy moment is when he finds out she's pregnant and he's with her, congratulating her for like one minute, and then he is like, you know what I'd love to do, tell Mini and Roman,

Caroline:

know. I thought about that.

Anne:

Obviously we know why,

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

He's excited that his promise to them has come to fruition, but

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

be thinking like, really you wanna tell them right now? And the gaslighting really continues after, right after the pregnancy. He's like, they call it prepartum hysteria, and he laughs at her. How come you thought Abe and I joined the party? You know, you were kapow

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

it's like he's trying to make light of the situation, but as far as he knows, she believes her baby has just died, and he's just like laughing it off. And when she hears that

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

next door, he once again is gaslighting, making her feel crazy saying the new neighbors have a baby. I guess he does feel some guilt, regret, right after she kind of mentions him like, she's like, are we gonna talk about the way you're not looking at me? And when she tries to get him to feel the baby in that scene, just after the party, he like flinches back.

Caroline:

Yeah. I don't know that it's guilt.

Anne:

Okay. What do you think it is? Fear,

Caroline:

yeah. Or just discomfort he just can't handle being uncomfortable, you know?

Anne:

much what he's done to her, but how it's affecting him. And you know, when she discovers the baby is alive, he's in the background with just like his head in his hand. And again, he can't look her in the eye and then he tries to justify it. Like, they promised me you wouldn't be hurt and you haven't been like, yes, she has. She's absolutely been hurt.

Caroline:

I was like, are you kidding me right now with the, you haven't been really? I think he says you haven't been really, like he does

Anne:

Qualify that.

Caroline:

give in a tiny bit, but come on.

Anne:

Speaking of, gaslighting, Dr. Saperstein. the second I heard Dr. Saperstein, I was immediately like, don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious.

Caroline:

Right,

Anne:

Same name.

Caroline:

And Jean Rap's dad

Anne:

I'm talking about.

Caroline:

is an OB.

Anne:

So surely and record referencing this

Caroline:

how did they even do that? Because John Rafi is a character way like seasons before

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

comes into play.

Anne:

Yeah. Do we know it's John Raphael Saperstein from the beginning when we first meet him? I don't know.

Caroline:

That's a good question. When did he become Snap esteem

Anne:

John

Caroline:

and

Anne:

Dr. Saperstein comes into the picture.

Caroline:

is her ob

Anne:

Anyway, he sucks. You know, he's also telling her don't read books or listen to your friends. He's infantilizing and dismissive. she describes her pain like a wire inside her getting tighter and tighter and he's like, it'll go away. a few days.

Caroline:

I love that part when she's like, haven't you heard it'll be gone in a few days? You know?

Anne:

a bit of sass again, I mean, I get that doctors get annoyed by people who spend too much time on like WebMD, but to be that dismissive, which really ties into the yellow wallpaper again. He's a bit maha, don't you think? suspicious of

Caroline:

Oh yeah.

Anne:

and instead is pushing Mrs. Keve smoothie.

Caroline:

I really hated how callous he was, you both in terms of the pain that she's having as well as when he tells her the baby has died. also gaslighting her because they like forced her to stay on the bench and have that baby then, and then he is like, you know, maybe if we had gotten to a hospital, but you wouldn't listen.

Anne:

She begged for a hospital that, that wasn't, her not listening she was desperate

Caroline:

No, to be fair, I remember, all of our kids are over five. You, me and our college girlfriends that we chat with a bunch. And I do remember all of us talking about how we'll read an article or in a book it'll tell us one thing, and then the next day or the next year or the next pregnancy, you're being told the opposite. So on one hand I do agree with not reading too much about these things.

Anne:

drive

Caroline:

It, it yeah. But there are way more resources now I think, than there were, that it's not gonna be the same frequency that you're being told something different,

Anne:

And once again, we know that's not really why he's telling her not to read. His intentions are not actually good. He's part of all this. Speaking of villains, shall we talk about the caves a little bit more? True

Caroline:

Yeah, sure.

Anne:

abrasive neighbors, As, someone who has changed the time I've left for work to avoid taking the train with a neighbor who's perfectly nice. Like

Caroline:

I hope they don't listen.

Anne:

no, I, I don't, this was way in the past. but yeah, I'm actually quite with, guy when he's like, if we have dinner with them, they will, we will never get rid of them. That is a real fear for me. Like, oh, be careful about making f friends with your neighbors. Because if you don't like them, you're stuck with them. And my neighbor a devil worshiper. He was just a guy that walked to work at the same time as me, but mini caves is abrasive.

Caroline:

Oh my God. And when she comes over there with that other woman, Laura, something,

Anne:

Ugh. I hate Laura Louise.

Caroline:

gosh, when she, when she gets startled, I, I, I cracked up both times. She gets startled reading the thing with the magnifying. I was like, ah.

Anne:

And then at one point she

Caroline:

Um, but anyway.

Anne:

like

Caroline:

Yeah, she, she

Anne:

as

Caroline:

Yes. And it was like very obvious she was rocking the baby too fast. I was like, this is like, you're like shaking the baby. It's like violently rocking that,

Anne:

is a

Caroline:

that

Anne:

feeling. particularly an older relative is holding your baby and they're crying and they don't wanna give it back, and you're like, oh my God, let me have my baby back. But they are like, no, I've got this, I've done this. You know, I, I felt for Rosemary in that moment, even though that moment is. Used to manipulate her into doing something she probably shouldn't be doing. But,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

that scene where Rosemary's

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

read, speaking of, the sanctity of reading Minnie shows up and then they just like sit down with their mending and knitting and I was like, oh my God, what a nightmare.

Caroline:

when,

Anne:

here to

Caroline:

you Yeah. She put on a nice record too to like, you know, chill with her book.

Anne:

have such a peaceful time. Ugh,

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

Uh, and then when like she's having dinner with guy that the night of the chocolate mousse and he goes to open the door and she's like, no, don't let her in. Very relatable.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I think she's giving r Parman as Matilda's mom in the 1990s. Matilda.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I love saying giving now, even though I'm a geriatric millennial, I'm sure it's cringe if any young people are listening to hear me say it, but I think it's fun.

Caroline:

No, I mean, I've been doing it a while too. It's fine. You know what, I think part of the blessing of aging is less books that you give. You know, I'm gonna say what I feel like saying six, seven, you know.

Anne:

Mini cas, she doesn't give a fuck, right?

Caroline:

Exactly. And oh my God, it's hilarious when she's like asking how much things cost and everything. Like have you ever known someone like that? That nosy

Anne:

like I have,

Caroline:

and inappropriate?

Anne:

through movies and I'm just conflating it with my real life, but yeah, I feel like I know that type. And then when she tries to get herself invited to Rosemary's party, like just trying to steamroll her. She's like, oh, I'll help you get the codes. I'll help you set up, she's like, wants to be there so much. and Rosemary has to be really strong not to give into that.

Caroline:

Yeah. One thing I'm curious about them, so their original intention with not Victoria of vent entry, Terry, so they were clearly gonna try to get her pregnant, but why did she, you don't read the note that was stuck with the bandaid.

Anne:

I think, that they. Took advantage of the 1960s counterculture with lots of young people running away. Terry was living on the street, right. She was obviously on drugs and they were like, this is somebody that we can take advantage of. so they took her on board. They give her the chocolate mousse I think she knows what happened because it's implied that, Roman told her. Do you remember that part?

Caroline:

yes, that was part of the dream sequence that you mentioned with the voiceover, which I didn't catch the first time. I did not realize that The nun was Minnie's voice. I first time I, not the second time,

Anne:

her. I knew she wouldn't be open-minded.

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

So I think Roman told Terry what happened and that she was carrying the son of Satan and she. Threw herself out the window

Caroline:

What do you think the notes said?

Anne:

I don't know. Do they tell us what the note says?

Caroline:

they just say it's short and sweet.

Anne:

and I think Roman clearly wants the son of Satan to have a mother, which is probably why he told Terry that he could

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

from the beginning to be on board with this and she wasn't, because he's the one that's pushing at the end for Rosemary to let, Rosemary in.

Caroline:

we were talking earlier about like what you can hear from your neighbors I thought it was crazy when they left that first night having that first dinner, they closed the door and they're immediately shit talking in the hallway, shouting at each other. About how awful the cake was and like, all sorts of stuff.

Anne:

not

Caroline:

And, and that the steak was overcooked. I mean, I, I couldn't believe it. And then it was not until they got into the bedroom that he was like, sh, you know? And I'm like, you literally were in the hallway

Anne:

hear you.

Caroline:

shouting about it.

Anne:

I guess maybe they were really drunk. I don't know. I'm not realizing it. cause they, they did have that, what was it? some pink drink that's apparently popular in Australia. Do you remember what the drink,

Caroline:

I was like, gosh, we keep having all these Australia references

Anne:

called?

Caroline:

I don't remember. I wanna say Moscow Mule, but that's not what it was.

Anne:

that.

Caroline:

Do you think that the actor that played Roman actually had Pierce steer.

Anne:

they did zoom in on the ears without really seeing his face, so probably not. I'm guessing those are someone else's ears.

Caroline:

I but I did chuckle a little that it was like, oh my god. A guy with pierced ears. Oh my god. Scandalous. Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. And it's like what has Roman Ovitz been up to? I mean, she's thinking he's probably like secretly gay or something, he's got that kind of old New York air of experience. so braggadocious. He's like, you name a place I've been there.

Caroline:

Right. And he's got fabulous clothes. I.

Anne:

I thought that was interesting that in that first dinner he's kind of pontificating about how all religion is show business and the hypocrisy of organized religion. I think he's right there. I don't think the, answer is to turn to a religion based around Satan,

Caroline:

Well, yeah, I really appreciated this line. I remember the first time I, I watched it too. You don't have to have respect for him because he pretends he's holy about the Pope.

Anne:

which is what my relative who. said about priests. When we discussed, pedophilic Priests in our spotlight episode, she said, you don't owe them anything to me. actually, she might listen to this. She, I'm interested to see if she does, because she like sent me a being like, how wonderful you have a podcast, like a really supportive, auntie text. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, are you gonna be mad at me? That I said you were a badmouthing priest, but I didn't say who she was. So,

Caroline:

Hey, mad respect to you, auntie.

Anne:

Well, we've discussed the baddies. Shall we discuss really the one supportive person in Rosemary's life? Poor Hutch. He's like this father figure to Rosemary. He's not really explained how they know each other, but he seems to really actually be one of the only ones looking out for her.

Caroline:

I assumed that he was their landlord in the other apartment because he says, I wanted to tell them that you guys are drug dealers

Anne:

so he's the

Caroline:

or but I decided to lie. Yeah,

Anne:

Well, he's the voice of reason and sanity, and he gives us those important red flags about the history of the Branford, that there were women called the Trench Sisters who cooked inate young children. They mentioned someone named Keith Kennedy, which I googled to be like, is that a real person? And they all seem to know who he is. So he's, I guess, somebody who did something notorious in the world of this movie, even though he's not real. And then Adrian Mercado, was the leader of this coven, and turns out to be Roman cave's father and a satanist. and then because he figured it out, he's the one who's gonna tell Rosemary and then they take him out.

Caroline:

yeah. as a truth teller, he also is curious about the tennis route.

Anne:

Yes. Well, that's I think what. Prompts him to look into this and not, well,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

condition as well, because he's like, maybe this is not good for her. and that's what causes his death, we've got that checkoffs gun moment where his gloves missing, right? And it's just like, oh, this is just no big deal. Why is your glove missing? But then she later realizes when she replaces the book, that, guy throughout, she goes to another bookshop and finds a different book on witchcraft that to do their satanist witch magic, you need to have something of that person's like a, one of their possessions. And she finds out, she calls up the actor who went blind and finds out that guy is involved too, because he suggested that they swap ties.

Caroline:

I thought she did that very well. Oh, didn't you leave something behind or out what it was of yeah.

Anne:

So when he's gone, that's just like the final source of sanity and support, then all she has left are guy Dr. Saperstein and the castavets

Caroline:

Why do you think it is that she doesn't have her sisters? She mentions having sisters.

Anne:

Well, what do we know about, guy? know he is a jerk.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

of coercive control going on. it doesn't take a lot to get him to sacrifice her. So perhaps he's been isolating her for like a decade, you know, he calls all her friends bitches, right? so maybe it's a mix of moving away from where she's from, but also being with a husband. Who is the type of person who would do this to her, it's likely that didn't come outta nowhere, that he was a bad person to her before. That would be my guess. Can we talk about just some scenes? I love, I love the figuring it out research scene when she's looking through the book. All of them are witches. I just finished rewatching season one of Stranger Things and there's a one episode where Hopper and some of the other, police officers are looking at microfiche to find out, you know, stuff about the Hawkins lab. And I'm always down for a microfiche newspaper scene, a research scene, whether it's clicking on Google to find background information. I love those scenes in movies, but she's so limited in how she can

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

because it's the 1960s.

Caroline:

If there's anyone who I think of when I think of Scrabble,

Anne:

It's me.

Caroline:

it's you. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne:

what I was just about to

Caroline:

Absolutely.

Anne:

Scrabble's a really big deal in my family. so when she is, rearranging the letters I love that to solve that mystery.

Caroline:

I was like, I think I know why Andy loves this movie.

Anne:

Yes. And to find out that Steven Mercado is an anagram for Roman

Caroline:

Scrabble saves the day.

Anne:

Voldemort. Okay. Oh, I love the part when she's in Dr. Saperstein's waiting room and that gossipy receptionist comments on whatever perfume she's wearing. And she's like, it's better than that. And, mentions that Dr. Saperstein smells like crap too. And I'm just like, oh,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Okay. Most disturbing scene for you. What would you say?

Caroline:

when Dr. Saperstein tells her that the baby died because. the combination of she's already been told the baby's alive.

Anne:

Did Dr. Saperstein and Guy not like get their stories straight about how they were gonna handle her? Because Guy tells her,

Caroline:

Well, I wonder if that was intentional, like, to avoid her getting too hysterical too soon, and that they were trying to avoid discussing it as long as they could, especially so they could have the breast milk, but I mean, he's just so cold when he tells that the baby died,

Anne:

I mean, speaking of

Caroline:

for you? What.

Anne:

the gut punch when Dr. Hill betrays her, because she finally gets to see another doctor and you, you think, okay, on her side. He's gonna check her into a hospital even if he doesn't believe any of this. And then he opens the door and then there are a guy in Dr. Saperstein who like grabs her by the arm and man handles her out of the office. then in the next scene she's just squished in the taxi between them. Trapped

Caroline:

that's very horrifying as well. Charles Groden, I expected better from you.

Anne:

I, I didn't recognize him. And then think I saw later that it was him. I was like, oh yeah,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

The phone booth scene for me is a scene that really stuck with me, before rewatching it. Last week, if you asked me what do you picture when you picture Rosemary's baby, it would be. The devil rape scene and that phone booth scene, like that's what stuck with me. It's that moment where she just, she sounds so paranoid. she's like, there are plots and isn't it possible that there's a plot against me? And we know her paranoia is justified. And I think the weather really contributes to that. Like it's so hot and cramped. And then there's this older man waiting outside, back to her, like looming over her. And it's like maybe he followed from Dr. Saperstein's office when she left. she's wondering if he's in on it. She's enclosed, she's trapped, she's sweating, she's suffocating, and it's just all those barriers to any agency and she's just flailing for something or someone to believe her, which of course reminded me of the yellow wallpaper as well.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

did you find the devil rape scene frightening?

Caroline:

Yes. I mean, any rape scene is horrifying. Knowing me and my perspective on supernatural things, I guess it really didn't stand out to me that much. I feel like I was more horrified by the, I know I keep using the word callous, but the callousness the next morning of her husband being like, yeah, I didn't wanna miss baby nights, so I went ahead. Even though you're unconscious and now you have scrapes all over your arm, you know, I mean, I know that's not why she has scrapes, but I found that next morning to be more horrifying than the scene itself.

Anne:

I mean, this is really the only scene in the film that is like actual horror,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

like a monster and it's nightmarish. It reminded me of Twin Peaks, Just that.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

part where it's kind of like, what are you, what's going on? And then she realizes she's naked, it's very jarring and mysterious. You know, there's a lot of Catholic imagery, which I think is probably, again, explored more in the book. You know, there's images of the Sistine Chapel, but then it's, going back and forth between these kind of quiet, subdued yacht scenes, and then somebody's yanking her pants off or like her down and it's so unsettling. then, yeah, those devil hands clawing at her are very creepy. It reminded me of Get out a bit, have you seen Get Out?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

Okay, we will do that at some point. I won't say why I don't wanna spoil it, but,

Caroline:

Okay.

Anne:

I will say that he is not raped by the devil and get out. That's not what it's about.

Caroline:

Okay. Okay.

Anne:

the other thing I think is, arguably the most important scene, but also very disturbing, is the moment that she chooses to be a mother to this baby. It's a twist, right? Like, we've been thinking that they wanna sacrifice the baby, Because we've got hu's story of the trench sisters eating babies. and so that's what she thinks that her baby has been taken, and maybe it is dead because they're going to sacrifice it. But instead it's that face that only a mother could love, she's like, what's wrong with its eyes?

Caroline:

He has his father's eyes.

Anne:

not guys, they don't show it, which I think of hearkens back to Jaws, which was after

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

balance between what is shown and what's left to our imagination. Like, if they had shown us a weird looking baby, I feel like it would've really fallen flat. by letting us imagine, we can imagine something worse.

Caroline:

Yeah, I agree. I I really appreciate that we didn't see the baby.

Anne:

loven the scene, the juxtaposition of these irritating but harmless looking elderly New Yorkers like having a cocktail party, but at the same time chanting hail sat. And it's very disconcerting. It's a subversion of our expectations. You don't expect the old windbag next door to be a devil worshiper. You don't expect the herb garden, busy body, old lady to drug you steal your baby. We expect the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

harmless. And they are not.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

love when she enters the room with the knife and Roman starts talking to her and she's like, shut up. You're Dubrovnik. I don't hear you. Like she's had it with

Caroline:

Yeah. totally.

Anne:

Yeah. And then there's this idea of being trapped by motherhood. That's primal love. obviously not everyone experiences that primal maternal instinct, but Roman Ovitz manipulates that in Rosemary, he says, in that grandfatherly very reasonable way. But aren't you his mother? And by the end you can see it in her eyes that she is going to be the mother to this child. you could say she got what she wanted, right? Like she has a baby, she wanted a baby. presumably it's going to turn out to be a very evil baby, but at the same time, she's a mother. Do you have any questions?

Caroline:

You were mentioning numbers earlier and is there a significance to the number 11? Because there's often 11:00 AM meetings happening,

Anne:

other than Stranger

Caroline:

like more than once?

Anne:

if 11 was

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

back in 1966 at

Caroline:

I think she had a doctor's appointment at 11, then she was gonna meet Hutch at 11. Then there was like one 11 West 50th Street So I was wondering like, what am I missing with that? And I'm sorry we ran out of time before I researched it.

Anne:

Well let's look it up after.

Caroline:

I guess I'm interested in the purpose of the smelly stuff that we already talked about. Like what function does it serve? I, I, wasn't super clear to me. cause it was clear like the tennis root and, and all of that was for the health of the baby, but why does Dr. Saperstein smell like the other stuff, And why did it not really impact the baby that she threw it away,

Anne:

Yeah, because she doesn't keep using it. But then, then she has pills

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

right? so maybe that's some kind of form of tus root that Dr. Saperstein's giving her too. I have a question. When did Guy join? You know, I think it's implied that you know, they went over to dinner with the castavets that night. Roman castavets butters him up. He swallows at hook, line and sinker. And then he agrees to do this, right, to get a good part. But I just wonder, was he actually already involved? Like is this the reason they got the apartment? Because that apartment would be expensive, And maybe he was already involved in this coven and he was only pretending to be reluctant to start a relationship with the cast of Ettes and faking his reluctance to have dinner with them because he is already on board. reminds me, I think it's Ed Kemper, I'm not sure, but there was a serial killer who picked up Hitchhiker he would pull over and be like, oh, I'm not sure I have Or were like, oh, I don't know about like, and that made the people think that he didn't want them in the car and then he would murder them. I'm, I'm not positive it was Ed Kemper, there was some serial killer who feigned reluctance then gave in and let them in, which reassured his victims because he wasn't too eager. Does that sound familiar to you?

Caroline:

It doesn't, but I believe it. I mean, certainly Ken and Barbie having the fake out of a woman being in the car, making it more trustworthy, I really felt like that dinner, you see the smoke. From when they were having their cigars in the lounge or whatever dudes used to do when the women were washing dishes. And then when they come back into that room, he's got a pretty like shocked and horrified look on his face.

Anne:

So you think it's that moment? I think

Caroline:

So that's, yeah,

Anne:

scenario, but it just made me wonder'cause that apartment is really nice.

Caroline:

it is. But I think that it just lends itself to the fact that he was in over his head it supports his desperation, think.

Anne:

do more than Yamaha commercials.

Caroline:

I guess this would support your, contention because the fact that he mentioned having seen him in. Luther and the like. He saw his commercials, he saw his whatever, and this is not now

Anne:

It's possible that

Caroline:

Back then

Anne:

at the apartment they were like, okay, well this is a young woman. She doesn't have a child yet. Let's, let's make sure they get the apartment. That way if the Terry Donofrio thing doesn't work out, we've got a backup plan. Like offer them a deal or something.

Caroline:

I was also paying attention to the fact that she did tell Terry what her husband had been in, so then Terry would've,

Anne:

maybe Roman didn't

Caroline:

especially,

Anne:

it. And he is just he

Caroline:

Well you mentioned like seeing a gesture, but I guess that's a vague enough thing that a fortune teller would be like tall, dark man is gonna enter your life.

Anne:

falls for it.'cause he's like, oh, I did this thing and then Roman's like, that's it. So

Caroline:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anne:

on.

Caroline:

fortune teller esque. Yeah.

Anne:

just wondering also, who else is involved? for example, is the elevator attendant involved? Does he know, does the previous tenant know she's got that line? I can no longer associate myself and then she clearly has moved the armoire. So was she involved and then backed out or did she discover something and is presumably that's why she's dead. Right? She was

Caroline:

Yeah. I think she discovered something. Because she dies almost exactly the same way Hutch dies. she goes into a coma first and then passes, and she had that garden. So she was providing the tennis route and whatever else that Minnie was gonna need for Terry. She must have figured out why. And decided not to do it anymore.

Anne:

wanna be associated with making the herbs for a Satanist cabin anymore. Maybe.

Caroline:

but how did she move that secretary? Because it, it was enormous and it took both guys to move it.

Anne:

Maybe she got the elevator attendant to help her. I don't know. Do you have any criticism?

Caroline:

no, I mean, I guess my only criticism would be well, the end scene also, I was quite confused by like the Asian man with the, with the camera and, cause he exposes the film, which is like, I, I was horrified at that part too, because children, if you're listening back in the day, we had cameras with actual film in them, and if you opened it up, the film was destroyed. And then he takes pictures after that.

Anne:

Maybe that's how you take an image of the devil or something. I don't know.

Caroline:

Yeah, I was confused about the guy who comes in in the middle of their whole showdown at the end. Yeah. I was like, what is happening? I, I don't know. A lot of the end reminded me of The Shining, where I was like, clearly I'm missing a ton of stuff that is in this book that they wanna pay homage to in the movie, but not really explain.

Anne:

it as a variation on the nativity, like the three kings show up and all these people are there to worship the baby. So this guy is important. He's like of the three kings or three wise men, but that's subversion of that because it's a devil baby. That was how I interpreted it.

Caroline:

smart.

Anne:

I didn't like the la la la

Caroline:

Yeah. Which is her, which is Mia Farrow's thing.

Anne:

it,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

that haunting childish sing songy voice has kind of been done to death since, so I, I found it irritating even though it was probably pretty original at this point. I have kinda had to remind myself that this movie probably did it first. And the font in the credits looks like something you'd see like on a Barbie doll box.

Caroline:

Yeah, speaking of the credits, I do not miss the days when you had to sit through like an hour of fricking credits. I mean, like that is something that I'm glad has gone by the wayside.

Anne:

start the movie. I mean, I think we mentioned this before. I think Rosemary's a bit one dimensional, you know, in terms of what she wants from life. I think if this movie were being made now, we'd get a bit more about her motivations. it's a limited view of the complexity of a woman's mind. I think. the other criticism I had was the undeveloped nun dream. I kind of wanted to know more about that. I, I do think it's rosemary processing, which she's hearing through the wall the castavets are kind of reeling from losing Terry. but yeah, I just felt like, don't know, the fact that Rosemary's Catholic, I, I think that must be explored more in the novel.

Caroline:

back to sort of the symbolism of the plays and the other pop culture things they reference. I'm a person who was like obsessed with baby names, and like the meaning behind names. So I wrote down every single name they mentioned to name the baby and the meaning, and a lot of it is not, relevant at all. and I thought that's a missed opportunity, I guess, to have been throwing out names that would've had some other supportive, subconscious narrative associated with the story.

Anne:

obviously has meaning. She's Mary and then there's the herb aspect of it. Oh, herb in Australia, we say herb, Americans say herb, and then Guy is like the quintessential guy maybe.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

True horror, deeper horror, people who keep a ticking clock in their bedrooms. me insane. I've like slept over at places where people have like a tick, tick, tick, tick clock, and I'm just like, oh my God. How, how?

Caroline:

Me too. I've actually like put them under pillows and stuff and had to remember to take them out when I was leaving the room.

Anne:

clock that chimes every 15 minutes, I, die

Caroline:

No, because you we have a grandfather clock that I inherited at our house, but I don't ever like pull the chains or whatever you need to do to make it actually chime and tell time accurately. It's just decorative

Anne:

please.

Caroline:

point.

Anne:

I guess another deeper horror is the. Dehumanization of women in pregnancy. I Levin said that part of his purpose in writing Rosemary's Baby was to explore the idea of a fetal monster where tension is built for a grueling nine months before the creature even appears. And so I think pregnancy is such an of control thing where you just have to let go and accept that loss of control and agency. And, you know, I don't think there's anyone who's ever been pregnant who wasn't worried that something was wrong, and you just have no choice but to wait it out. So I think there's this enduring relevancy now in the loss of control women are experiencing over their bodies that, is touched on in this movie. And then just the idea of how well do you know the people in your life? How well do you know your husband, your doctor, your neighbors? our episode a few weeks back on unknown number. Go back and watch it and listen. can you trust anyone? Rosemary couldn't and neither could Lauren. Ari.

Now the last thing I wanna talk about, and if people don't wanna hear about this, you can skip forward a bit, but we're gonna talk about

Anne:

whether or not we can divorce the behavior of a creator from the creation, or the work of other creators that we perhaps find vile for whatever reason..

So if you're not interested in that, skip forward about six minutes,

Anne:

We touched on this kind of idea with the yellow wallpaper episode regarding Charlotte Perkins Gilman and the fact that she had some really horrifically racist views. So should we. a movie like this when the creator is morally compromised in some way. And Roman Polanski, at the very least, was not a good husband to Sharon Tate, like cheated, like crazy. But he also is very open about being attracted to very, very young girls, like 13, 14, 15 years old, and is accused of raping one of them. What do you think?

Caroline:

Yeah, I gotta be honest, I felt bad watching it a second time before this episode. I mean, I, I watched it because we ended up squeezing in another episode. We ended up recording this further apart than we would've, I definitely was like, I wanna watch it again. So it's fresh in my mind when we talk about it, but I feel bad giving airtime to this person who clearly is an abuser. I do find, and I know we touched on this in earlier discussions as well, there have definitely been people whose work I loved and appreciated and can no longer love and appreciate because of things I know about what they've done. And then there are others that I am sure I've given more latitude to than probably deserve it. So I think it's a very personal, barometer, I guess,

Anne:

this spectrum of, well, how bad is the thing that they did, and how much do you like the thing? And

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

wrong to be putting quality and nostalgia for a piece of media and kind of weighing that against what this person did, but I think we all do that.

Caroline:

Like, the Cosby Show, like that show was the only thing my entire family ever watched together and enjoyed, and I can't watch it anymore.

Anne:

makes sense that you can't watch it because the Cosby Show was about him being. A respectful

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

man. And the reality is such a subversion of that. So it's about that. you probably haven't seen Jeepers creepers, but that's another horror movie where the creator is a predator, I believe. I don't know too much about it. I've just been reading a little bit about it, and the movie is about a predator relentlessly seeking a, a young man. it's too close to what he actually does. So it doesn't sit well if you watch it now. yeah, it is such a spectrum I mean, I think with movies,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

to justify it in that this is bigger than one person. Right? This is bigger than Roman Polanski. I actually don't know anything about I 11 and whether or not he was compromised in some way, but he wrote this and Mia Pharaoh, should we, forget her performance, should that be erased from memory because Polanski was a bad man.

Caroline:

Yeah. I was actually gonna say along those lines, when you expressed that. sort of dichotomy, that it's an oversimplification because there's tons of people involved in making a piece of art, any form of piece of art. from the people who first write it to the people who produce it, to the PAs, to the sound people, to all those other people that work really to the actors. basically.

Anne:

definitely. We talked about in our catch and kill episode, victim who goes on to become a victimizer, and how people can be both victims and villains here, but that one doesn't excuse the other. And I think it is important to note that Polanski is also a victim, he's the victim of the Holocaust. His mother died, who's pregnant, had to hide with a Polish couple. he would've experienced a lot of trauma. He's the husband of a horrifically murdered woman.

Caroline:

Who was pregnant?

Anne:

who was pregnant? Yeah. he's experienced horrors as well. but that doesn't mean it's okay for him to on to perpetrate horrors. it reflects the, and I'm not excusing it, it reflects the values at the time that like. It was normal, when he was arrested, he was like, are you serious? Like, that was seduction. He doesn't believe that what he did was wrong. it is wrong because if you're a powerful man in your forties and there's a 13-year-old girl who's trying to, become a model, there's a huge power differential there. So it's very gross. And we know that that 13-year-old year old cannot actually consent now. But at the time some people thought it was normal He committed a horrible crime that he didn't even think was a crime because of the cultural attitudes about sex with very, very, very young girls. And his attitude obviously still exists, but it's not as if it's the cultural norm now. Like we condemn it remember like, when the pianist came out, was this major attitude in Hollywood people defending him just like there was with Weinstein, because he was like making good stuff. I remember thinking, oh, whatever happened must be overblown. Because I remember seeing the pianist not knowing any details about what he was accused of buying into that, oh, Americans are such prudes thing. That was, that was kind of the argument floating

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

But if you actually look into what he did to this 13-year-old girl, it is truly horrific. in his own biography, he admits to some pretty damning stuff in terms of his attraction to young girls. So I think he is a disgusting man but I also think that we can appreciate this movie as a piece of horror history and as something that he's not the only contributor to.

Caroline:

The important piece is to not be like sweeping under the rug, the horrible acts or imperfection, you know, because there's also a range like there's people who you hear are just abusive. and. What's the scale of what you're gonna consider to be acceptable to consume their materials or not?

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

it's just, it's such a complex thing the number one thing that I've taken from it is, first of all, listening to my gut about a thing. However much I might wanna appreciate a thing. If it becomes hard for me, then I just can't anymore. and then otherwise, if there are things that I'm consuming that have baggage, being sure that I'm acknowledging that baggage

Anne:

Which, I don't know, maybe this comes up as a defense. of wanting to like Rosemary's baby. so I don't know. it's hard, it's murky. Let's move on from that survival. Is there any takeaway you get from this movie?.

Caroline:

So hard, but I think making sure that you don't put your eggs all in one basket, I guess, because they very successfully isolate her. And it's like the moment that she's exposed to people outside that unit of three, she questions things and she lets her instincts come to the forefront and they validate her. Know, it's really important and I think it can get hard, as I said earlier, we had our high school reunion this past weekend, and there are a lot of people that I grew up with who live nearby. And when our children were all. In preschool, we would see each other a lot. But now that they have, activities and are a little bit older, it's now my entire world is like my house unit. it did make me think a lot about how I've sort of given up some of that, not that I don't have, friends who are not parents of my kids' friends, but it's certainly fewer

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

it used to be. and it's important to not have, like I said, all your eggs in one basket and being, have a lot of places you can go to if, a problem occurs.

Anne:

Have places you can go to get a second opinion, whether that's in your friendship group or your doctor, right? Like if you don't feel like you're getting your needs met

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Get a second opinion. I've had so many stories of, friends who are in the medical field and how they've been able to advocate for themselves because they know. if you're not in the medical field and you don't have that background knowledge, it can be a lot harder to advocate for yourself. So I think getting a second opinion is important. Don't worry about offending the doctor

Caroline:

Totally.

Anne:

and watch out for those signs of gaslighting and coercive control those red flags. Check your closets for hidden passages. Hopefully nobody's fogging in your house. And, don't make friends with your neighbors. No, I'm just kidding. That's terrible advice. But careful about making friends with your neighbors. Alright, you have a palate cleanser?

Caroline:

I can't actually remember what made me think of this again, but, I think something on Instagram reminded me of my appreciation for Dawson's Creek. oh. Yeah. It was the upcoming anniversary, which is now past us. But, there was like a show that there were doing in New York, And, I decided to look for podcasts that Dawson's Creek episode by episode. And I was reminded of this podcast again with this, which I loved.'cause they also covered 9 0 2 1 oh So I would, was giving it a re-listen and it was just giving me so much joy and I was saying I can't wait to talk to Annie about the fact

Anne:

what's

Caroline:

because

Anne:

I

Caroline:

we, it's called again with this,

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

yeah, but I just really loved listening to Seasons one through Three and the journey that that goes on. And it was also a podcast that I used to love several years ago when they were doing the whole 10 years of 9 0 2 1 oh episode by episode. And I listened to all of it. They also, on their Patreon, they talk about the podcast that Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling have where they, they cover 9 0 2 1 oh, which was such a disappointing podcast. It was terrible. So this again, with, this has like a Patreon where they listen to that awful podcast and recap it for you so you don't have to listen to the bad podcast. You can just listen to them instead.

Anne:

is like the Russian doll of podcasting.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Well. as my palate cleanser, I would recommend 30 Rock because of Rosemary going there to meet Hutch, and I love that show and it brings me a lot of joy Do you have any recommendations?

Caroline:

Yes. I mean, along those lines, parks and Rec, as we mentioned, Dr. Saperstein and John Rafi and Mona Lisa Saperstein. Charles Groden has been in many great things, great Muppet Caper being top of my list, as well as a movie called Heart and Souls that not that many people I think know, that is a lovely early nineties movie that I enjoyed. Of course, Beethoven,

Anne:

I

Caroline:

which most people love, but I don't actually love it because as I've already mentioned, I hate saliva. And that scene when the dog. Is like shaking and his spits going everywhere, and Charles Jordan's mouth is actually open. I just, I, I'm getting sick thinking about it.

Anne:

Drag me to hell. If you don't like mouth horror,

Caroline:

Yeah. yes, happily.

Anne:

maybe I

Caroline:

Um, along those lines, also, of course Harold and Maude for, Minnie, she is Maude. and then there's also, Dr. Shand has been in like a million nineties. Things like wings. mad about like literally every nineties primetime show he was on, he was on Roseanne, which was the thing I recognized him for. So watching the original Roseanne before Roseanne went crazy, speaking of separating the creator from the material, only murders obviously. and then. For another podcast. I was thinking of the Papa Sisters, the f

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

element because of the mention of those other sisters, that supposedly lived in the building. Yeah, the trench sisters. That's right. and my favorite murder covered the Papa Sisters on episode 55. Let's hear your podcast is what it's called.

Anne:

Okay, well I'm gonna recommend reading the book. I would like to reread it. I've read it in the past. I don't remember much about it. Other than that. I liked it and it would probably answer a lot of our questions. I always look for related podcasts. Uh, and this time I came across, you must remember this, about the Manson murders. cause when I searched for Roman Polanski, it came up and that was a really interesting podcast because it's about the history of Hollywood it goes into the Manson murders, but also all these kind of related things that, and I found it really interesting Gossip Girl, because Blair and Dan watch Rosemary's Baby on a split screen. you could check that out for deals with the devil. You could go back and read a picture of Dorian Gray or The Little Mermaid one of my favorite Disney movies. Also a female character that use a little bit more complexity

Caroline:

Is underage.

Anne:

under age. Yep. Apartment seven A is a prequel with Julia Garner. Maybe check it out. I wanted to watch it, but it has very bad reviews and then it wasn't available on anything to stream. So I was like, all right, I'm not gonna pay for this. But it's out there I watched Mother, which is with, Jennifer Lawrence. And I'm hesitant to recommend it because it's, it's brutal. But there's a lot of parallels. There are weird older people hanging around. There's a pregnant wife who's really into decorating her house and a gaslighting husband. There's a massive allegory in it. I'll leave it at that. Uh, but it's got some very violent. scenes, so I don't recommend it for you. Caroline Handmaid's tale for dehumanization of women and being forced to carry a baby for some other purpose. upon a time in Hollywood for a re-imagining of the Manson murders, which obviously impacted the director of this, we talked about before. Gaslight with Ingrid Bergman and you can go back and listen to our yellow wallpaper episode for more gaslighting. Maybe you wanna look at more Satanic demonic horror like The Exorcist and the Omen. More recently, there are links with Hereditary. The movie Annabel, I think is definitely inspired by this. There's another housewife in an old New York, I don't know, I don't think it's a New York building, but it's an old building. There's a basement scene and the character is even called Mia for old NYC buildings. Like you said, only murders. Also Archive 81 is really good. For pregnancy horror check out Immaculate with Sydney Sweeney. deserves an Oscar for that birth scene. And as I mentioned, get out for dreamlike states and being gaslit to think everything is normal when it is not. And Samantha Gailey's book The Girl A Life in the Shadow of Roman Plansky, if you want to hear from woman that Polanski raped when she was only 13. And what about you listeners? What do you recommend to go with this? If you have thoughts on our episode, you can, contact us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com, Instagram, Facebook, or threads. We'd love to hear what you would recommend to go along with this. So homework, what's next? Caroline?

Caroline:

inspired by this legendary, or infamous, setting of this building, I wanted to watch the vanishing at the Cecil Hotel in Los Angeles, and the disappearance of Elisa Lamb. and so that is what we're gonna be covering next. It's on Netflix, I think.

Anne:

When Rosemary and Hutch are discussing the Branford, she says, awful things happen in every apartment. And Hutch responds that the Branford has a high incident of unpleasant happenings. So we're going to talk about another place with a high incident of unpleasant happenings.

Caroline:

Absolutely. I mean, it was the first place that came to mind

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

when I was hearing that whole back and forth.

Anne:

also. before vanishing at the Cecil, it's gonna be Halloween. So we've been going back and forth on what the best horror movie to watch is, and we decided on Scream. So that will be our Halloween special. And after that vanishing at the Cecil Cecil vanishing. At the Cecil.

Caroline:

I was gonna be like, for Americans.

Anne:

It's just like, it's stuck in my head. Yeah.

Caroline:

We're a

Anne:

Um, okay. thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Tell a friend write a review on iTunes. As I said, you can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com and if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.

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