Drawn to Darkness

7 - Midnight Mass

• Anne Azano • Episode 7

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Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness. In this episode, we take on Mike Flanagan’s Midnight Mass, a seven-episode horror drama that’s equal parts theological meditation and vampire apocalypse. Set in a dying island town with economic and emotional wounds, the show explores what happens when miracles start to occur—at a terrible cost.

We dive deep into the show’s literary devices, biblical allusions, long monologues, and that slow burn of dread. We also fangirl over gorgeous Riley and hate-watch Bev Keen’s every move. This episode also asks some biggest questions: Who deserves a miracle? Is it pro-Catholic? And seriously—why would anyone think that thing is an angel?

This one’s for the horror lovers who like their vampires sacrilegious, their theology terrifying, and their tears existential.

Trigger Warnings:

  • Suicide
  • Miscarriage
  • Fatal car accidents
  • Animal cruelty (cats and dogs)
  • Religious trauma and anti-Catholic sentiment
  • Cult dynamics and mass suicide

Palate Cleanser:

What We Do in the Shadows (TV series & movie) – If Midnight Mass drained your soul, this vampire comedy will resurrect it.
I ♥ Huckabees – Caroline’s weird, philosophical comfort film. Existential dread, but fun.
Smash Mouth’s “All Star” translated into Aramaic and back into English. Check it out!

So many recommendations! 

If you liked Midnight Mass, try:

  • The Haunting of Hill House and Bligh Manor, Fall of the House of Usher (Mike Flanagan’s best work)
  • The Exorcist (original film & lore)
  • Salem’s Lot by Stephen King, Interview with the Vampire and 30 Days of Night – Vampires + isolation = terror
  • Hellbound (Korean Netflix horror about angels, cults, and death countdowns)
  • “Hell is the Absence of God” by Ted Chiang (for a more literary pairing)
  • The Crucible by Arthur Miller
  • The Reach (a beautiful Stephen King short story–not horror!)
  • Fleabag (for the Hot Priest)
  • Mystic Pizza, ET, Friday Night Lights – for young actors from Midnight Mass
  • Jaws (for island insider outsider dynamics)
  • 7, scream X-Files (all referenced in Midnight Mass)
  • The Perfect Storm
  • Erin Brockovich (for that oil spill class action energy)
  • Passages podcast (especially their Twilight season – very funny snark)

Homework Assignment:

Jaws Summer special! And the week after that we'll discuss Heaven’s Gate: The Cult of Cults (HBO docuseries). Meanwhile, start reading Carrie by Stephen King and down the track Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow.

If you delight in what you fear, you’re in the right place. Like, subscribe, rate and review. Tell a fellow horror nerd, follow us on Instagram: @DrawnToDarknessPod or email us at drawntodarknesspod@gmail.com. We’ll see you in two weeks.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His Instagram is @harryjkidd and you can also find him on Spotify. https://open.spotify.com/artist/43BiFkkOHykD8n9g4z0Qd7

Anne:

Welcome back to drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you have watched so much true crime that you assume every trash bag on the side of the road contains discarded body parts, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows and books.

Caroline:

And my

Anne:

I wanted to start today by asking you who is your most hated fictional character of all time? Books, movies, whatever.

Caroline:

I'm blanking on her name. Harry Potter.

Anne:

Bridge.

Caroline:

Yeah, Dolores Umbridge.

Anne:

too.

Caroline:

And especially because and took my cats, you know, like to cats as a thing that is hers she sucks so much.

Anne:

She has corrupted cats and used them for evil,

Caroline:

yes.

Anne:

is not right.

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

And something that this show does too, that we're about to discuss, I just realized, um. Yeah. Okay. So people who come to mind for me are, Janice Soprano, my husband and I recently re watched The Sopranos. And just every time she comes on screen, I'm just like, Ugh, I hate you. JJA Banks, he's probably one of my most hated characters of all time. You don't have to be villain. I said character. Character. Yeah, I ask you who you hate because I don't know if I've ever hated a character besides maybe Dolores Umbridge as much as I hate Bev Keen from Midnight Mouse, which is the show that we are going to discuss today. I got this flashback with Bev Keen to, I, I guess, the indignities of working at a restaurant like Applebee's. She reminded me of my manager. to quote the young people, she's giving Applebee's manager vibes for me. the false wholesomeness that like plastered on smile while delivering some kind of caustic, horrific criticism and that sense of power and control they wield over their small sliver of the world. Not all Applebee's managers, I'm sure they're not all bad, but, just the idea of someone who wields that power ferociously with, hypocrisy. Anyway, we'll get in all into all the reasons that we hate Bev Keen soon enough. But first, we are discussing Mike Flanagan's. Very talky, very beautiful, but also very scary series. Midnight mass. Trigger warning, there are many, miscarriage fatal car accidents. You may want to consult Does the dog die.com? I don't think there's a website for dead cats, but. If you're worried about dead cats, that's there too. There's suicide, horrific deaths in general. I didn't personally find this anti-religious, but some Catholics might find this upsetting. It does arguably desecrate some sacred Catholic rituals and, for Friday Night Lights fans, Matt Sarason is in peril, If that's gonna upset you, you might want to, take care or skip this one. And Bev Keen might make you want to break your TV in rage or toss something at it. So if any of that's a problem, Be warned.

Caroline:

I with the fact that there isn't website? So we might need to take care of that ourselves.

Anne:

should be. It's not really fair, is it?

Caroline:

is not

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

maybe, on get judged differently than dogs day. To be clear everyone listening, all five of you, I am also I don't

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

think You have to choose.

Anne:

I am both as well. I love them both. I want a cat so bad, but my dog would probably kill it. So, also our discussion will be bursting with spoilers, so this is your warning to go off and watch it and then come back and listen up. So here we go. Mike Flanagan's Netflix series. Midnight Mass is about a fishing community on an isolated island with a declining population that experiences miracles, a renewed sense of hope, and religious fervor after the arrival of a charismatic priest. But what is Father Paul offering? Is it too good to be true? Caroline, what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline:

very ominous and sinister, but also hopeful. of because it's dark on many levels. Like I literally kept adjusting the light on my iPad being like, why can't I see anything that's happening?

Anne:

I found it. Oddly beautiful as well. I agree with you. Ominous. Sinister and dark and scary. I think it's, it's very scary, but also I think it's really clever. It's thought provoking and, yeah, I, I love it. I think it's one of my favorite shows of all time. It's up there. Um, I love pretty much all of Mike Flanagan's work. Someone described it online as drama with a frosting of horror, right? it's deeply, deeply human focused and the horror is there and it's pivotal, but it's not. The only thing about it, it's about deeper things. Guilt, atonement, grief, love, forgiveness, which is my favorite type of horror, just like the haunting of Hill House. Did you like it?

Caroline:

The best of the so far? For sure.

Anne:

Okay, great. this might be my favorite of the things I've recommended so far as well. so I wanna start with just how good is this? Um, when I get ready for this podcast, I just watch whatever it is we're watching or read, and then I. Dictate notes onto my phone just as thoughts come to me. And I had 17 pages of notes when I finished this. So I was really struggling with how do I get this down to a reasonable amount of time so that we are not as long-winded as some of the monologues in this show. so there's so much to talk about. Character, literary and cinematic devices, biblical allusions like the stations of the cross and the books of the Bible. Each episode's named for the connection between the plot and the lyrics of the different hymns and scripture. But we can't talk about everything, obviously. So I'm gonna recommend the podcast. Strange indeed. The host Deep Dive on every single episode. So there's actually more podcast time than there is time on the show. There's probably about 10 to 12 hours of podcasting on this one show. So if you want more, I highly recommend checking out. Strange indeed. I listened to the first few and they do a great job of analyzing every episode. maybe we should talk a little bit about, motifs and literary devices, because I think this is so sophisticated. Like blood, like when Hassan talks about how he wanted to contribute after nine 11, he goes to a blood drive. We have Aaron spotting before her miscarriage. Annie pricking her finger when she's sewing, which, alludes to Macbeth, by the pricking of my thumb. Something wicked this way comes and snow white. and of course the symbolism of blood and the ritual of the mass. So there's so much I. deeper stuff going on when you are kind of aware of it. I think there's also the theme of darkness and light night and day, sunrise and sunset. There's, pathetic fallacy, which I'm about to teach Macbeth again. So these things are on my mind. But, you know, the first time we see the vampire, it's a dark and stormy night, right? And, that use of weather and location to create a sense of dread, an impending doom. and the use of juxtaposition, like the beautiful Neil Diamond dancing scene where everything's just going well and then it cuts to Father Paul doing something creepy to the wine, or Riley's final moments when the girl he killed is reaching out to him and then Aaron's screaming. I actually used a scene from this the other day to my students are doing creative writing and they have to perform a monologue. So I showed them Aaron's wing clipping monologue to talk about effective pausing and, expression and gesture. And I was like, I just wanna show them this whole TV show. I wish I had a spare eight hours to just show them how to build tension and how to resolve arc and things like that. it's just so good.

Caroline:

Given this is my first watch, I was definitely more enthralled with a plot, less apt to write notes about extra complimentary devices. I did notice the posters, in his bedroom. I made a couple notes about, um, Sen's bedroom. I forgot his name in this. I'm so terrible about names. I'm really sorry. You're so good. You're so good with names. occupational hazard for you, I think.

Anne:

I have to learn so many names as a teacher, so.

Caroline:

Yeah. And of multiple at it, but I'm not, anyway. as I was saying, the posters, so I noticed he has a seven poster behind his head as he's talking to his mom. And I was like, oh, that is very fitting for the whole theme of this. And then in episode. Five, I think it is. When he stands up, he's got an X-Files poster behind him. And it's Scully it really, complimented where he was he was a much more, to earth in terms of his religious understanding at that point anyway, but I just thought it was so fitting having studied all these other religions and understood sort of the device that religion serves, as opposed to hopeful way that people try to utilize religion reality.

Anne:

And Scully's the skeptic,

Caroline:

Exactly.

Anne:

he is

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

skeptic in this show. The counterpart to, father Paul. It definitely made me want to rewatch X-Files seven. And there's some other poster they had on the wall, I've got it written down somewhere. I'm not, I'm not a film critic, like I'm not really good at analyzing things like camera work. But even I noticed that the camera work was really cool in this, there's this scene, where there's like a long shot when they're looking at the cats on the beach and it just is circling them and people are kind of running in and out of the scene. And I thought that was really very cool. And, also in the AA meetings, they, they do these kind of overhead shots of Father Paul and Riley and then closeups, and it just kind of goes back and forth. I noticed the camera work and that's not something I normally pay that much attention to. I also think the characters and their arcs are just so amazing. I don't think there's ever been a show or a movie I've seen that wraps up each character's arc so much more beautifully. Except like. Paddington two, Paddington two. Every character has a perfect arc. But yeah, there's just so many good scenes, whether it's Hassan's monologue about being a police officer, experiencing post nine 11 racism, Lisa, forgiving Joe Colley Ri or Aaron's monologues about what happens after we die Riley's final moments in the boat. It's just. good. one great scene at another.

Caroline:

also, say like, what if the boat burned? You know, like he did burst into flames. So I did write down life jacket with like three exclamation points next to it.

Anne:

Every time that a character rode out into the ocean, I was really worried about the currents, like just taking them somewhere and then being able to get back. And I know I was like, why am I thinking about this? They have greater things to worry about, but, like if you can't see the land, how do you know you're turned in the right direction? So I was like, how's she gonna get back? How does she know which way she's supposed to go? I had safety concerns too.

Caroline:

And I I for to land

Anne:

Did you like the setting?

Caroline:

was trying hard to to then at oh, maybe it's Pacific Northwest. and I did end up googling where he was from, and so I think it is northeast inspired. but yeah, I thought, I was a great set, very real feeling.

Anne:

Yeah, it's filmed in British Columbia, but it felt very New England island to me. You know, like, the creek of the boats, the gulls, the sun rising over weathered beach shacks, isolated and beautiful, but economically depressed because it's reliant on one industry. And it's a place that's dying. It needs resurrection, which is, why Father Paul, I think, thinks he's doing the right thing. I thought it was interesting that people aren't even selling their homes. They're just leaving. It's the type of place a vampire or angel could infiltrate and the isolation is why it's possible, but also the cause of its downfall, right? Or B'S actions as well. it reminded me of Jaws, The insider outsider thing, who's an islander, who's not an islander. And it also reminded me of Salem's lot, which I only just recently reread, it's a Stephen King book and Mike Fla. Flanagan was definitely heavily inspired by it because it's about vampires infiltrating a small town and the town itself is almost a character in the novel. All the kind of simmering underbelly and tensions and and how that contributes to the story that we are experiencing. Love the beginning of any horror movie, horror TV show that just those signs that something isn't quite right, like the dead cats washing up on shore, something unnatural is happening and I just think the foreshadowing of this is so skillful. You know, we've got Bev messing around with rat poison in episode one in the supply closet, and that comes back in a big way by the end. Erin has that monologue about her mother clipping dove wings and how her wings were clipped. And then Erin cuts through the wings of the angel. We've got Riley's dream about the sunrise, the ash Wednesday mass gets the ashes on his forehead and by the end everyone is ashes except Lauren and Lisa.

Caroline:

shit. actually, it and and then he responds with his stupid dream. He's so selfish because, like in, sorry. and all my love to this character as well because he does redeem himself. But the show opens with a bang, right? And when he's praying to himself and that EMT is like, while why don't you ask him why all the kids end up dying and all the drunken douche bags walk away with a few scrapes, and I was like, boom. And then you see the family crying in the courtroom with their signs hear, he gets four to 10 years and this young girl is dead. So I was quite angry at him in the beginning it's kind of like there's a total difference between a situation you grew up in that had nothing to do with you and a situation you put yourself in. Not that both aren't traumatic,

Anne:

Yeah, I think there's so much about atonement and forgiveness and how do we move on when we have done something truly, truly awful, and cause deep, deep harm.

Caroline:

Actually, when he comes he's got this like. like malicious vibe. He does this little lilt of his head that seems very out of character for the pure Riley and much more like of wicked in a way. So I was super nervous when that happened, even though it also turned me on a little bit.

Anne:

so you're saying smoldering because of the way he was behaving or just because you have a crush on Matt Saran And always have

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

I. Can we talk about how beautiful RI is, as a specimen of a man?

Caroline:

didn't even need to see he was just like, it was very, the testicles were very, very, very looking really good.

Anne:

Yeah, he, he is aged in the most gorgeous way. I mean, he was so cute as Matt Sarason, but like as ri, I just love him and at some point we'll have to watch the fall of the House of Usher because he plays kind of a young version of a bad guy in that. it's pretty cool as well.

Caroline:

You know, maybe our listeners don't know. guys. But transcended,

Anne:

Yeah. I think of myself as not into blonde guys. I guess my husband's got

Caroline:

You're

Anne:

gray now, but. Yeah, what did it remind you of? For me, it reminded me of church as a kid, like the lyrics of the hymns, the slow monotonous ritual of the mass. A lot of my memory is how excruciatingly bored I was. But I can still say those words in my head that, you know, father Paul is saying, I can feel the way the bells ring during communion. Like I can predict every word, even though I haven't gone to mass regularly in a long time. All the kids partying on the beach at the beginning in episode one, that is like my teenage years, I spent a lot of time sitting around a beach

Caroline:

had been

Anne:

I would've loved Kaz to be at our high school parties. I would've welcomed that. Having said that, there were enough sadist in my high school would've abused them in a drunken state, so probably good that there were no cats.

Caroline:

the out with,

Anne:

definitely that I'd be worried about the Frat Boy show off by harming an animal vibe that some people would've had. Did it remind you of anything?

Caroline:

hard for in my brain. lot of going to a college where everyone was Catholic and I was not, I sort of thought that having gone through those years there being so close to so many people who are Catholic, that I would know these vocabularies and stuff, and I was shocked at how many things. I was like, what, what, what word is that when she talks about is garb or whatever,

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

and I, and it has a name. So, it reminded me of that,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

of feeling

Anne:

Well there's some definite outsiders in this show, like Chef Hasan and his son Ali. And you know, who goes to mass, who doesn't? What makes you an outsider? Are you an islander or not? You're not born here. You're not an islander. To quote Jaws, um. Uh, you bring up, interview the vampire. Yeah. It reminded me so much of vampire lore, which is funny because they never say the word vampire in this show, right? They call it the angel. But, it reminded me of what we do in the shadows. When I saw the angel flying around, I want it to like, yell out. And, and of course, Dracula, right? Like, so much of this comes from vampire tropes, which go back to Bram Stoker. like Dracula arrives in England after his voyage in the Demeter in a big crate. Just like Father Paul brings the angel back in I'm sure you remember the, what we do in the Shadows episode where they have to bring dirt to, uh, Las Vegas, I think. but one thing I think is interesting is that the angel or vampire like figure in this is so different from our. Normal depiction of vampires, like vampires are usually maybe seductive and full of the wisdom of hundreds of years of life. so they're suave and sophisticated and manipulative, whereas this thing was an animal, right. Like absolutely animalistic and be still,

Caroline:

normally

Anne:

this was not hot. Yeah, definitely not hot. pretty icky thing. I don't think I will ever get the way it feeds out of my head, you know, the way it's almost like sexual the way he's, you know, like stroking their head and then he just like breaks their neck and you hear that and it was just like, ugh.

Caroline:

Yeah, suave, like I do fallen for like, no, just keep sucking me while I cut your wing. You know, like that never would've worked on any of those vampires.

Anne:

Yeah. Because they more of their humanity. And I guess this thing is arguably thousands of years old, right? And it's been in a cave thousands of years, I think is the implication. So how much has its humanity degraded in that time, as opposed to lat? Is that his name? It's gonna kill me.

Caroline:

what we do in the

Anne:

No, it's not Laslo. It'll come to us. To look'em up. I, The stat Okay. The vampire list stat,

Caroline:

at the answer. Right when I pressed enter, I was like, Lestat.

Anne:

you know. you did it. I didn't do it. I got Lauren. That's close. I wanted to talk about just how clever this is, I think, and, arguably sacrilegious for someone who's very Catholic, but I still thought it was clever. And Mike Flanagan, the director is Catholic, so he's, he was an altar boy. So I guess it's kind of like you have the right to make fun of your own family. As a Catholic, I think he has the right to tell this story. as I said before, there's so many religious aspects that you could dive really deeply into, but I wanna focus on the idea of transubstantiation and the depiction of angels in the Old Testament and how Mike Flanagan. It that with vampire lore, even though they never say the word vampire. so what do you picture when you picture an angel, Caroline?

Caroline:

I'm What's her face The not Live. Tyler, the

Anne:

It blanche

Caroline:

Kate

Anne:

like

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

blonde hair, ethereal.

Caroline:

Lord of the Rings character

Anne:

I think I picture like the Renaissance angels you see in religious imagery the white robes and the, you know, serene face and blonde hair usually. but at the same time, if we actually look at the Old Testament and as the show points out, angels were terrifying. People always reacted in fear. And the biggest baddie in Christianity was Lucifer, who was supposedly a fallen angel. Angels are warriors. Angels are the ones who, slaughtered all the firstborn of Egypt, angels are scary. And then we have vampires who can't go in the sun. They drink blood. they're immortal. They have everlasting life is a more Christian way of saying immortal. you know, not all the trips are used You know, there's the trip that a vampire has to be invited in. And obviously they don't do that, but, that ties in with the concept of eternal life. And I think Bev quotes, I wrote it down, whoever eats my flesh and drinks, my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up on the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. And whoever eats my flesh and drinks, my blood will remain in me and I and them. So we've got this, these old words, right? Where did they come from? and it's, it's the kind of thing that I've heard so many times, like so many times in church, take this all of you and drink from it. This is my blood. And you hear it so much from a young age that there's not much critical thinking. You're just like, yeah, okay, that's what we do in mass. But drinking blood is crazy, right? when you take a step back from it and think, where did this come from? Why are we drinking blood and why do we believe that it is the real blood of Jesus Christ, that trans substantiation, that it actually turns in to flesh and blood. It's a horrifying idea, and yet we all not all of us, but people who have grown up Catholic just kind of, you know, let it, let it wash over them.

Caroline:

Yeah, I gotta the symbolically, that happened before, when I found out like, no, no, no, they think it actually, and I was like, but not really. Right. You know, like, I was just like, there's no way. It's a little nuts. But you said two things kind of back to back. That came back to, I guess the primary reason that I hate Bev. There's so much gaslighting and selective behavior on her part. There's a point on episode three where she says there's a the Quran that people find offensive as if there isn't a ton in the Bible. And she does say that after, but kind of as an afterthought. and she makes a quote at one point. says like, you can't just pick and choose what parts of the Bible you're gonna believe in. And I'm like, aren't you doing that? Like, you're literally doing that constantly. It's really insane.

Anne:

Yeah, it's when she's trying to convince Wade and, um, Sturge to get rid of Joe Hawley's body,

Caroline:

Right,

Anne:

like, you can't cherry cherry pick. I can't remember the line, but, and then she threatens him with like, you wanna take your, you wanna take your daughter's miracle away? And it's so harsh and she's, oh God, I hate her so much. Let's talk about the list of Bev's worst moments at some point Um, one more thing I wanted to say about this concept of combining the lore of Vampirism with Christian ritual. You know, arguably in This world, vampirism explains the miracles recounted in the Bible, right? There is raising of the dead in the Bible. Lazarus is raised from the dead by Jesus. People with epilepsy are healed. Jesus comes back from the dead. And again, disclaimer, I'm not saying Jesus was a vampire. I'm just saying in this world and we know that stories are passed down from generation to generation, they become misconstrued. They evolve. And in midnight mass, we're kind of seeing like the immediacy of resurrection and healing. But you know, the stories of the New Testament were told after the fact. So is Flanagan proposing that there are no angels. There are misinterpreted vampires and the ritual of drinking blood during mass and the miracles recounted in Jesus' lifetime come from a vampire like creature where Jesus and his puzzles spreading this word, healing people several thousand years ago. I just thought that was interesting. I know it's. Not true, but did this come from? Yes.

Caroline:

the

Anne:

What's the buzz? Is that one the one you wanna talk?

Caroline:

no, I, I

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

um, they're getting hoped that

Anne:

Oh yes.

Caroline:

be Hannah apostle.

Anne:

Oh yes. Yes. That's a good one. Yeah. I think Jesus Christ superstar's coming to my city. I gonna wanna go, I've just, shared a couple Jesus Christ superstar songs with my kids'cause we've been listening to Les Mis and they love it. And I was like, try Jesus Christ Superstar. And they said it's too screamy. There's a lot of screaming. They've got a point

Caroline:

20%

Anne:

All right. last week when we were kind of in the middle of this, I asked you if you'd cried yet and you said, no. And I want to talk about that because I cried so many times. I feel almost as emotionally drained after watching this as I did, watching The Handmaid's Tale, which made me cry like every episode, and I stopped watching it for that reason. So, did you cry? Not once.

Caroline:

and to get uh, it doesn't mean it., I'm just not vulnerable, I guess you would say. I have a lot of walls up. but when. closes his eyes and he opens his eyes and the girl he killed is there. I did well up at that moment for sure.

Anne:

You're talking about in the boat? Yeah. Oh God, that's such a good scene. you not a crier in general?'cause I'm like, I like cry at commercials and I'm just still, I'm still surprised you didn't cry.

Caroline:

I am I am

Anne:

That's

Caroline:

in mommy always cries at Bluey. Like every

Anne:

Yeah, me too. and the supernatural me Well let's talk about the biggest gut punches, and I think we could start with that scene. when RI and Aaron are on the boat and, he's. Obviously come to this conclusion that he's damned and he's going to sacrifice himself, to make sure that she knows and that she believes.'cause otherwise nobody's going to believe him. And, it's so powerful. you know, just this idea of what do you do? When you have done something as horrible as Joe Cauley causing Lisa's paralysis or, Riley killing someone, you know, even if you didn't mean it, you did it. How do you go on? And it seems like Riley's kind of actually starting to enjoy himself, it's like he has to step back because he feels guilty, Like he doesn't deserve good things anymore. I think I quoted frozen a couple episodes ago, and I wanna quote Frozen again. Frozen two. You just have to do the next right thing, is a beautiful song. Um, and I think in this moment, doing the next right thing. because he is moving past things. You know, he, he's, stewed in guilt for four years. literally haunted by the harm he's done, but he's rekindling this relationship with Aaron and then, in that moment we all know what's ha about to happen, right? Like she doesn't, and we can see that what has been foreshadowed before the sun is going to rise. We know this is gonna be horrible and it's beautiful for him, right? Reflecting his monologue about how when you die, it's like a dream and all these endorphins and chemicals are coming and he's feels whether he is or not, he feels forgiven. By the girl he killed and she extends her hand and it's so beautiful. And then it's just juxtaposed with horror, we just switch to how Aaron is seeing this moment and he's just burning up in front of her and it is just so beautiful and then so horrible. And also, I think, are they playing, um, near my God to, in that moment? Yes. Which makes me cry in Titanic that song is playing. you believe Titanic.

Caroline:

happens there.

Anne:

Oh, it's so powerful.

Caroline:

Marvel spoiler. So all 10, he like Star Lord is the reason that Thanos was able to snap his fingers. it's a small action that triggered a series of events. That, Led to her cutting those wings just like him losing

Anne:

mm.

Caroline:

not cool. I think she says Anna. But yes, Brad

Anne:

Of course.

Caroline:

yeah. till the

Anne:

Always, always. And forever. Yes.

Caroline:

I, think next gut punch, I don't know if you were gonna talk about the dog next, but I was so angry I did get sad, but I think I just refocused it on anger towards just being like, that bitch did it. You know, just like so

Anne:

Yeah, Yeah. But you see Joe's grief and that dog was the one thing he had in his life that was good, so cruel. And Bev knew that she's cruel, right? She wanted to take that away from him because she's worst. My biggest gut punch I, well, I dunno if it's the biggest gut punch, but the part that made me sob was when Lisa forgives Joe,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. much in been a and especially no way I would've ever raised my voice to an adult of any kind. I struggled to even do it with a peer, you know, so I was so focused on her bravery and just feeling like, wow, what about us girl she is,

Anne:

And it's so real. Like she's still angry and she's still upset and she still kind of hates his guts, but like she knows forgiveness will help them both despite that. And I just, his reaction is like, you know, the pain in his voice. He can barely talk. You can just see he's wrecked by grief and you can feel that palpable when he kind of lets it out when she's like, I forgive you even though I hate you, and I want you to suffer. She gives him that permission to go on and it's, it's, really beautiful.

Caroline:

mean, I Sometimes you can just lets in need to do that to them. You could just internally that person is gone for me. Or that situation is over for me and try to move on with your don't think you need to necessarily do it in front of that person because a lot of times I don't think offenders are like Joe or Riley, like I think people who

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

don't care that. They hurt you most of the time. But both of these men were obviously remorseful and, and worthy of, the forgiveness that they were able to get

Anne:

Yeah. And I think they both suffered for what they did. And I, I, I kept wondering, why doesn't Joe leave the island?

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

I think. He's punishing himself. By forcing himself to look at what he did every day, because you can't avoid her, right? it's a hundred something people on the island. so I think there's this element of self-flagellation going on that he's refusing to move on because he doesn't want to, because he knows he did wrong and she finally gives him that opportunity. And that leads to me quite liking Joe, which again is why it's such a gut punch when he dies, because, you know, he's humor. He's opening up to ri, he's giving himself permission to be human again. And he has, I think, one of the best lines of the entire show. I wrote it down because I loved it so much. Beverly fucking Keen's, queen Evil Bitch Emporium, embezzlement, R Rus, incorporated, LL fucking CI love that.

Caroline:

Yeah. of these not everybody the daughter in the wheelchair didn't relocate. Because one of my first notes is it must suck to be in a wheelchair on this island because I doubt anything is a DA compliant anywhere. You know,

Anne:

They did talk about their financial situation. Right. Like that they spent so much money on her, so maybe they just financially couldn't either.

Caroline:

Yeah. it's rough

Anne:

And then I found, yeah, when Joe dies and hits his head, and I wasn't expecting it to go like that, like I was expecting Father Paul to actually bite him. Right. And it's just so sad because he has successfully, accomplished 24 hours or whatever of sobriety and he's coming out of that fog of guilt. and that's when he becomes Father. Paul's first blood don't know.

Caroline:

devices of Hollywood you can look over for the sake of the story.

Anne:

Yeah. gut punch number. I don't know what number we're on, but another gut punch is when Aaron's baby's gone.

Caroline:

Yeah, I remember at the beginning being like, that's Anna Beth Gish. she's gotta have more to do than just me GYN. And liked of the we'll get to. But, yeah, that was crazy. And also when she goes to the mainland and has that appointment with the doctor there, you know, especially because being a, a true crime obsessed person myself, I've list listened to and watched so many stories of women with these fake diseases, et cetera. so I thought that nurse did a great job of being like. I'm sure maybe you think you were pregnant, but there's no evidence here. And trying to figure out if she was having actual mental break or just doing things for attention, you know?

Anne:

She could have had a nicer bedside manner, I guess because we're coming from Erin's perspective, knowing she was in fact pregnant, that I thought that was a bit harsh. But yeah, you're right. Some people do fake these things for attention, so I guess

Caroline:

for there not being any higher elevations of any, you know, like you would just be like, wasting time

Anne:

you're crazy.

Caroline:

you know.

Anne:

Yeah, I did find that scene so ominous. You know, I, I felt, and probably everybody feels nervous. What if the heartbeat's not there every time they go for an ultrasound? And then the way, Sarah, the doctor turns the screen and, you know, they're just those hints that something's wrong. And, I just found that really real and sad. And, you know, I think the grief of miscarriage is a deeper horror could be discussed because it's this. Secret shame that people don't tend to talk about But it is such a massive loss and sad. So I think that was another big gut punch for me.

Caroline:

close 20 many states here, her. and then gone through labor, et cetera, in those cases. So I think, you know, abortion is healthcare. Just wanted to say.

Anne:

Yeah. definite, deeper horror that connects to what's happening in real life. Another big gut punch for me is the very final scene, when Lisa says, I can't feel my legs. and you know, you contrast that with the moment when she and Warren are just so like adorable in love and she's knocking on his window and spinning around in joy. And then you imagine her in that moment when she's just watching her home burn. She knows her parents are dead, she's an orphan. And, you know, both those kids for as flawed as their parents were not, not Annie, I guess she was very nice. But, ed, he was very repressed and not a very loving dad, but I think he was, you know, he showed his love in his own. And Lisa was very loved by her parents and very supportive. You know, she talks about going for walks with her dad every day, and that was the moment that was taken from her. And so she's now an orphan. at the same time she's found out that the miracle has been rescinded and it's just a big gut punch.

Caroline:

been, worried about of person she's just gotten so close to, they still have each other's support. It never mattered to him.

Anne:

she'll still have Warren's love for sure. at the same time though, she smiles because that's actually the way it should be. This miracle, you know, life isn't supposed to work like this. and it probably means the angels did, right? Because that ties in with the vampire lore that if you make a vampire and then the, head vampire dies, it filters on down through the minions. so I think it likely tells us that the vampire has not made it to the mainland because if it had, and it was still around, say 60, 70 years down the track, Warren and Lisa die of old age, they'd become vampires, right? Because the blood is in them

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So for this to be over, that thing had to die, but it also took away her miracle. let's talk about some of the themes we haven't discussed yet. the Christian idea that suffering is a gift. Was this so much of an idea in the church when you grew up, or is this more of a Catholic thing? Okay.

Caroline:

was never, of hell whatsoever think the

Anne:

Mm-hmm. Which is links to Lisa, forgiving Joe Cauley. there's definitely this idea in Christianity that suffering is good. Suffering is the price of eternal life. Father Paul says that when he's manipulating his parishioners into, you know, drinking the Kool-Aid in episode six, Jesus suffered for the greater good. And so I love Riley's monologue about that. I think it's so powerful, just these glib things people say like, it's all part of God's plan. Or when God closes the door, he opens a window. And that's something I've heard a lot. and sure that's true. If you don't get the job you want or you don't get into the university, you want it to go do. But you know, just to go back to, say, spotlight, If you were sexually abused by a priest, that's bullshit. If you are a child in a war zone, if you're dying of cancer, all these things are so trite. And you know the idea that God works in mysterious ways, and this is all part of a plan. says. That's monstrous and I have to agree.

Caroline:

people like,

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

would let Fry has a like bone know,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

It's not that I don't think there reasons for things, that we don't understand. I just don't think there's a puppet master on a string deciding who lives and who dies, and based on how much we pray, I mean, that's cruel. That is just cruel it's manipulative.

Anne:

and even Father Paul says, he admits it's hollow, right. And Hassan talks about losing his wife to cancer, when he is trying to convince Ali not to go to church. he's like, why would God give Lisa back her legs, but let a child on the mainland die of brain cancer? And again, that's a good question, Hassan, right? He says It doesn't work like that. that brings up the question of who deserves a miracle. If God is capable of performing and choosing certain people and not choosing others, only stop some suffering? work that way. And if it does, you know Riley's right? That's monstrous.

Caroline:

especially if God is helping your team win the Super just

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

a Ricky DVAs is and atheist. does, being things more significant than your life on earth. there's a whole conversation the woman who plays Philomena Kunk, if anyone's ever seen that. where she says if there's no God, why don't you just rape and murder as much as you want? And he's like, I do. And she's like, what do you mean you do? And he's like, I do rape and murder as much as I want, which is not at all, you know, like it's,

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

you know, it's not a, some invisible man in the sky that's making me not wanna do that. I have no impulse to do that.

Anne:

Yeah, yeah, You can have a morality without a God or without organized religion. can we talk about what each character does with their last moments of life? I think, you know, acceptance. a huge theme of this, when Father Paul is telling Ri how he's basically gifted something from this angel, he has that whole, the, what is the poem? The acceptance the grace to, do you remember what I'm talking about? to accept the things we cannot change. Okay. The prayer. Yeah. Yes. The Serenity Prayer to accept the things we cannot change. I thought that. Really? Yes. And we look at the way each character dies and each character faces those last moments. you know, Annie and Ed are singing and just being with each other, finding peace. I think RI peace because he. Has a sense of purpose. He does the right thing. Hassan and Ali pray. Paul and Millie say goodbye to their daughter. But what about fucking Bev?

Caroline:

the

Anne:

Do you remember her The best? Yeah.

Caroline:

that the singing, I loved I forget who says Annabeth

Anne:

Millie.

Caroline:

like, you're a bad person. Like just

Anne:

Oh, no, no, no, It's, Annie says that to her. Um,

Caroline:

does

Anne:

Riley's mom. You're a bad person, Bev.

Caroline:

It's

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

mom. Sorry. She's like, you're a bad person. And all of your

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

and all of your posturing, because you're rotten there's no

Anne:

Yeah. And, and boy is she rotten in what she says in response. She just looking into her brain for like, what is the nastiest thing I can say here And she attacks Riley, that must be a reflection on your parenting. And she's like, yeah, she refuses to, be shamed by Bev. And it's just like, yeah, he is a reflection of me and I love him and God loves him. And yeah, I love that moment.

Caroline:

it if

Anne:

Yeah. Another person who I think shows strength in death is Sarah. you know, she's been shot by. Fricking Sturge made me so mad. And this is after Father Paul has realized the error of his ways. And even though he has seen the blood bath in the church, he has said, we are the wolves. still in that moment, doesn't want to accept her death. He tries to, feed her his own blood and she spits it out. And I was like, wow, that's so strong.

Caroline:

I as what Would

Anne:

It also reminded me of Toy Story three, another moment that makes me cry when they're all headed for the incinerator and they all just reach out and hold hands because they've accepted their death in this very, very dark moment in Children's movie.

Caroline:

dude, I've tried at all the Toy Story movies. I love that.

Anne:

You know, talking isn't real either. That doesn't put You off crying. So it's more realistic to you than becoming a blood sucking vampire.

Caroline:

I guess it's just like the relationships they have with each other feel real. I don't know. Because, in this that make it feel not she has the scan and she calls the Baby Little Foot, which is from Then she's chatting with Riley later and she refers to Her baby is Little Foot. And there's no explanation about that. And I hate when that happens in TV or movies where it's like, that happened in a different scene. This character doesn't know who you mean you say Little Foot. who's Little Foot? You know? she could just say Little Foot. That's what I'm calling it. something very like that. But I, I think in all of the monologues, as you said too, those things also remove me.'cause people don't do that in life. People don't sit down and say, oh, you think this is gonna be better for me, to investigate this. Let me tell you my nine 11 story. That's not a conversation that happens. It's just like, okay, thanks. Goodbye. You know?

Anne:

and people don't not interrupt.

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

People interrupt each other all the time. And they all just sit and wait.

Caroline:

We interrupt each other all the time, and we don't mean to, you know,

Anne:

Constantly. Yeah. I think. Mike Flanagan. I saw somewhere in an interview that he talked about like making the Dawson's Creek episodes that nobody wanted. And I was like, yeah, people don't talk like they do Creek either. It was something he made in college, when he was coming up in the world and he talked about making something that he compared to Dawson's Creek. And I'm like, yeah,'cause Dawson's Creek characters don't talk like real people either.

Caroline:

they

Anne:

yeah. monologues, you just interrupted me. Did I cry in Dawson's Creek? I think I probably did. I'm sure I did. can we talk about Ri and Erin's monologues about what happens after we die? Whose monologue did you agree with more? Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

I also

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

some quotes that I wanted to refer to actually here So, I great video of Neil deGrasse about how atoms of our bodies are traceable to the stars that manufactured them in their cores and enriched ingredients across the galaxy billions of years ago. We are definitely like connected to the cosmos biologically. And then there's also one of my favorite movies of all time, iHeart Huckabees. I don't know how many people have watched or enjoy that movie as much as I do, but there is a mention of the world, everything being interconnected and Dustin Hoffman is, a psychologist there or. I don't even know what kind of doctor they call him, but he's showing a blanket to demonstrate, the world. The universe is a blanket and he holds up the blanket and he's like, say, this blanket represents all the matter and energy in the universe. Okay. And then he pokes at the blanket and he says, this is me and this is you. And over here, this is the eel tower, right? That's Paris. And then he is like, and this is a piece of string and this is a love sort of talks about how everything is connected, which I think is much closer to Aaron's monologue at the end. So I, I think a marriage of those two.

Anne:

Their imaginings of what happens are both what they need it for, comfort in that moment. I, I keep going back to ri, wanting to serve a purpose and by going back to the stars, by just being energy that's going back into the universe. He serves a purpose at the atomic level and. His life is so full of pain. Like he says, there's nothing left of me, no pain, no awareness, no memory. Because his awareness right now is just that sense of guilt and that's what he needs. Oblivion is comforting. Whereas for a lot of people, oblivion is horrifying, right? Like a lot of people want to believe in heaven so badly because the idea of nothing is the scariest thing they can imagine. but Aaron on the other hand, imagines love rising to heaven, being surrounded by grandparents and even though I find that too comforting to be likely, you know, it's what we want to believe, not what is likely. it still made me cry. I thought it was really beautiful and maybe we just need to believe that. and that's okay.

Caroline:

because my no would be like, in pain and suffer and miss you comfort them? That sounds like hell to me. I couldn't imagine, especially in the case of being a child of a parent and then you die and your parent is literally waking up in universal pain forever for the rest of their lives, that doesn't go away. They just get used to it. I feel like it's more likely that we're transforming into something we can't understand. And maybe there's

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

love involved in that and elements of the people you knew involved in that. But I, can't imagine. We're just like watching people cry and being like, we're doing great. know?

Anne:

Well yeah. In that final release of chemicals, you feel love, I hope

Caroline:

I hope

Anne:

the way Erin does. Let's talk about Pruitt. so Monsignor Pruitt, father Paul, He's such a perfect, cool priest because he wears jeans. have you known any cool spiritual leaders and how it's like, ooh, they're wearing jeans. They must be, different

Caroline:

wore sorry, my, my youngest calls it mix-match.

Anne:

mix match.

Caroline:

of mismatch,

Anne:

like it.

Caroline:

that English teacher, that was teacher, he wore like wacky, like that kind of vibe,

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

oh, that

Anne:

cool Teacher vibe. and those dark understanding eyebrows with his. Benevolent expression and his furrowed brow and you know, the way he lets Riley's scathing anger just flow over him. But at the same time, there's this uneasiness about him in those early episodes because we know something's not quite right about Father Paul. victim or villain. What do you think?

Caroline:

thought if you'd leave, I just suddenly being like, incel, you know, thinking he didn't get the woman he wants so he can take down the world. I don't know. What do you think?

Anne:

I didn't see it like that. I saw it as the horror of forced celibacy on priests, which results in all sorts of horrible things, but a lifetime of regret. He should have been able to have love and love his daughter and be happy. But because of the priesthood, he was not given that and he wanted a second chance. And that was selfish and wrong. But I also think he was deluded, right? he. Fell for this thing. When he meets this angel, he's got Alzheimer's, he's got dementia, right? So like he's not thinking clearly. I think sometimes the mark of like an interesting villain is when they think they're doing the right thing. And I think Father Paul definitely thinks he's doing the right thing. He loves his parish, he's committed to them. He sees their economy dying. He sees that the island needs resurrection and people are leaving. So he thinks he's giving his beleaguered parish a gift, but he's wrong. He hasn't brought them miracles. He's brought them a monster. And I love seeing. The mental gymnastics he's going through in kind of the later episodes that this is all God's will and, killing Joe Colley and drinking his blood. Well, I shouldn't feel guilty about that because, look at what it says in the Old Testament and just how he chooses to see it, the wrong way to absolve himself of responsibility. Which is interesting because in that earlier monologue, during the AA meeting, he specifically says, well, no, saying it's part of God's plan does not absolve us of responsibility. And yet he does that later. he was wrong, but I don't think he's evil.

Caroline:

I, the syllabus agreement causing problems all, all over the I, I really don't understand why it's necessary to be honest. also not Catholic, so I guess I, I, couldn't understand. but I do think that. people who are villains think they're doing the right thing. there is a, great True Crime podcast, mini series based off a Dateline individual episode. Called Deadly Mirage. and there's a very Christian, I think they're more evangelical couple, all the time, what God wants happens to be, what he wants, you know, like, It's an easy trap to fall into that Bev also uses, to judge, chief of police and his religion, and anyone who disagrees with her.

Anne:

Can we talk about that scene? well let, let's talk about Hassan. he's the Chief Brody here. He's not a fisherman, he's not Catholic, he's not an Islander. He's a skeptic. He's the Marty Baron from Spotlight. have you ever seen him in anything else, the actor? Well, he's Inly Manner and the fall of the House of Usher, which are also Mike Flanagan shows. And he's fantastic in both. So we'll have to do those eventually. even though as you pointed out the monologue about post nine 11, racism is not realistic in the way he delivers it. I still think it was awesome the way it ends with, and you want me to investigate St. Patrick's, like, it's the opposite of the reasons the Catholics in Power in Boston Spotlight let the priest get away with things. They were too embedded, but he's too much of an outsider. I think my favorite Hassan moments also just said he's the only person who's kind to Joe. know, Joe did wrong, but he needs somebody kind. And I thought that was sweet.

Caroline:

like his explanation why out in school. I Brody, is this mayor, like the mayor in Jaws when he's like, we need to hold, it could be contaminated with something, it could be disease. And the mayor's like, woo, okay. Everything's fine. You know?

Anne:

I love that scene. like the camera is going in circles, just like he's going in circles. Like, in that podcast I mentioned, the host Rema calls him Ned Flanders, and I was like, yes, he is such a Ned Flanders. And he's just like talking about this, cat NATO aftermath on the beach and he's talking himself in circles to convince himself there's nothing to see here. He's like the meme with the dog and fire, and hell fire going. This is fine.

Caroline:

Oh, I just wanted to say like the cat thing

Anne:

yes. So the angels started with the cats. You mentioned earlier that Bev's handing out Bibles at this. Public school and I love that, gotcha moment that Hassan has with her. starting to talk about the Quran and what it means and and then she's like, I don't think this is the place to discuss where our beliefs diverge. And he's like, that's it. And he traps her into admitting this is not the place for religion. That's exactly what I'm saying. And it's so satisfying to see him get her in that moment. But it doesn't matter because you can't use logic with someone like her. And she ultimately wins because, she doesn't have logic behind her. She has faith and, you know, these debates are being held all over the country, all over the world.

Caroline:

So when he saw his son drink the Kool-Aid, for lack of a better term, I really was very emotional at that moment because I just felt like he's already lost his wife and now this is his child and he's physically being held back watching this thing happen, and I, I really, really fell for him at that moment. For sure.

Anne:

That would be probably one of the most torturous things you could experience as a parent watching your for a cult and ideology that's resulting in him to drink poison for it and having to watch it. I mean, it's, it's, yeah, truly horrific. We don't have a lot of time to cover Sarah, but I did approach to she's like experimenting with the boiling blood And Erin comes to her and is like, this is what just happened. I know, it's crazy. I must sound, like lunatic. And she's like, well, I have something crazy to say too. And she's like, look at my mom who's looks

Caroline:

Yeah. And that actress is quite a bit younger.

Anne:

let's move on to the character that we, have referenced several times, Bev Keen, the Karen from hell, I thought we could count down Bev's worst moments. Just like we talked about the gut punches. Yeah, I hate her so much. I think she's similar to something we'll be encountering soon. Carrie White's mom, who is also a religious fanatic and abusive. there's also similarities to who's of. do that in the worst Bev

Caroline:

Well, she killed the fucking dog. that that was terrible. I thought the scene where, Ellen comes to get cleaning stuff you're, you're, yeah. Your, your mom would save everything and here you are looking for more. And she has to say, if there wasn't a bottle at home that my mom couldn't finish, you know?

Anne:

Yeah. She's so pedantic and obnoxious and you know, Bev would've been a jerk to her mom alcoholic. But against to reason, just for In the Bev does is being a jerk about the

Caroline:

yeah. I mean, she, she is also blatantly racist

Anne:

Says be

Caroline:

Exactly.

Anne:

tainted or corrupted

Caroline:

Exactly.

Anne:

remember exactly what word she used, but, and then she calls. Ali boy, right? She doesn't even know the kid's name

Caroline:

I was just like, did she say boy, like This, person is giving up his life for her and she doesn't even know his name

Anne:

She's so awful. And then she even manages to be petty, Riley's made into the vampire first. And like she's jealous,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Which reminded me of Guillermo from, um, what we do in the shadows. He just wants to be a vampire so bad, but like

Caroline:

saved

Anne:

way

Caroline:

though.

Anne:

was in a petty, jealous way. I was really hoping Ri would overpower Father Paul and get her when he kind of uses Bev to show ri how he has this urge to drink blood now, to show him the hunger. frantically in makes who's allowed inside he church.

Caroline:

I just, Like, did you not read? actually said, know, the people whose feet he washed,

Anne:

she's cherry picking like cocktail like whoa. I don't know if I'd call that an escalation. I guess they already have had a of an entire in Vampire. So it was a Molotov cocktail in escalation, but it was still unexpected,

Caroline:

and she doesn't even have the guest to do it herself. She's directing her peon it

Anne:

I was kind of hoping that Sturge would show a bit of backbone at some

Caroline:

Me too.

Anne:

up to her

Caroline:

Me too.

Anne:

in general, I into people quoting scripture to justify. in the most said So she'll say

Caroline:

Yeah, that reminds me actually, I saw this on social media. I can't remember which platform It's a meme. It says, someone today asked me if I wanted to read Smash mouth's. All Star translated into Aramaic and then back into English. The answer to that question is always yes. So here is that translation. There was one who said unto me that the universe was going to cause me to tremble I am not the sharpest cutting implement in the storehouse. She had the appearance unto me as a stupid one with her finger and her thumb in the frame of a Greek gamma upon her forehead. Behold, the years begin coming and do not cease from coming, fed onto the axioms, and I fell upon the earth and ran. You will know, you will know. If you do not go, you will not shine if you do not glow. Behold, currently you are entirely a star child, beginning your power. Go laugh. I mean, you have to remember everyone. this Bible was written 500 years after this stuff occurred another language and has been translated and translated and translated. So you quoting back to me to justify your behavior means literally nothing to me. That was smash mouth all star.

Anne:

It sounds like a proverb

Caroline:

it. does.

Anne:

it, like behold. Yeah.

Caroline:

but it.

Anne:

give me your Bible. yeah, remove the plank from your eye. She talks about that at some point and it's like, that's gotta be a mistranslation somewhere other line. But she uses it to manipulate. Mayor Wade for example, he seems like, basically a good guy. He is kind of a nerd. But he loves his daughter, he loves his wife, he loves his church, but she. Uses all that scripture manipulate him into doing something he would never do under normal circumstances, to dispose of Joe's body, is a heathen, a and little girl sit back in that wheelchair. You can't cherry pick God's blessings. And then she uses it to the island on fire, which comes back to bite her. And thank God for that.

Caroline:

then proceeds to cherry pick God's blessings or try,

Anne:

Absolutely. Very big hypocrite. Let's talk about the scariest parts since this is about horror. for me, I think the early appearances of the Angel before we truly see it, know, like when we've got the, the Jaws rule of not showing the monster too early, where it's. Thumping on Aaron's his son to bed and saying goodnight. He's not putting him to bed. He's a teenager. He's saying goodnight. then suddenly you see it, the eyes, So jump and is just looking darkness, and then seeing

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. again, for me, a lot of the jump scares. I mean, I was watching it on my iPad and it was so dark, I think my iPad is also really smudgy, so I kept going back to try to be like, what, what happened there? And not really being able to see it that well. I didn't have a lot of jump scares myself because was too dark for me to see. honestly the scariest moment was them being trapped in the church and just being like, where's the exit? How can we get out of here? because that's a natural fear of mine. first, they're trapped in the building, then they're trapped on the island, and how do they figure out how to get out of there?

Anne:

There was a Pen

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

Bill,

Caroline:

I mean, yeah, it was such a long time where that kid was missing. Before it felt like for the viewer a long time between that happening and the mom having the conversation, and none of the friends mentioning like none of the people who buy from him being like, where's he at?

Anne:

Well, that ties into things we've talked about in the past about who makes a. Disposable dispensable victim, right? Like the horror starts with deaths that can be justified, right? Cats,

Caroline:

So true.

Anne:

a lot of people hate cats. Bull, the drug dealer, you know, he's. hanging out with CD people, so who cares? Joe Cauley, the

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Ri you know, we see RI as a human because we're seeing his point of view, but to a lot of people, Riley's that ex-con who got drunk and killed a girl, right? Like they don't see his humanity. So I think Flanagan is definitely challenging that narrative. By humanizing Joe, by humanizing Riley, and by Bull's mother showing up to Chef Hassan to be like, when something like this happens, we're all supposed to be the same. And again, that contrast with Bev, who ranks people and to her, none of those people matter. And if you don't go to church and you don't take communion, you don't matter. yeah, so I think that is part of the deeper horror beneath the surface. But bull, why did you go in there? That was dumb. let's see, what else was scary? Oh, when the angel gets ri at the end of episode four, I did not see that coming. I did not think RI would be taken out so early. you know, when he walks in, he knows that Father Paul has lied. And then there's just this unspeakable, clothed demon, just as unflappable as he was when RI tells him that God is

Caroline:

I, I, also did not expect Aaron to get grabbed that way. Like I was very shocked

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

by that moment and Sarah to get shot. I did not expect either of those.

Anne:

And it gets Millie that way too, right? Because Millie

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

ex performer lover, father Paul, and then the demon angel vampire, just takes her

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

quickly. So the power that it has when it chooses to use it is pretty scary. I mean, I think for me, the, the scariest moment. Is seeing those plastic cups full of poison, the way the tension rises to that moment, we're hearing Father Paul's cult-like sermon, convincing his followers to take part in a mass suicide event. And the expressions on different people's faces, like some are all in and you know, you can see that is Ed and Annie are like, this isn't right. Millie and Sarah, Erin, but then you see Surge and Wade and, um, remember. Lisa's mom, whatever her name is, Dolly. You know that Jesus, and with the and I found that so too.

Caroline:

There's a, a moment in the chaos where there's a mom with a boy and a girl in a pew. I was stuck in an elevator my 6-year-old and 9-year-old, And the whole time, the most exhausting element of it was trying to keep them calm in the chaos and trying to make sure they are not worried and they are okay. And I was obsessed with maintaining calm, I saw that scene and the mom is just sitting there just like, she's just like, it's fine. We're just gonna do this. And I was just like, woo. Like it just blew my mind completely,

Anne:

in contrast to that, there's like a dad who tries to stop the kid from drinking. Like it's, it's just all these different

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

are like, yep, let's do it. And other people are like, wait a minute, no.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

You know, your elevator thing reminds me of, I was in New York a few years ago with the kids around Christmas and we were trying to get to Rockefeller Center to just see the tree. And I have never been in a situation that was so crowded. It took us like an hour to walk a block because there was so many people, but once you were in it, you couldn't get out. Right? Like there was no way situation. And I that

Caroline:

Yeah, and the, sorry, the mom and the kids back to Titanic reminds me of that. It's like a contrast to that mom who's giving the old Irish tale to her children you know, they're in third class and they're obviously not gonna survive. And she's giving them a fairytale, to keep them calm. And it's like a total opposite. is fine. This is meant to be the Kool-Aid. You know?

Anne:

Drink the I.

Caroline:

yeah, I mean, I. I, don't know that I have any, that I haven't already kind of shared. Well, one thing I, that I really wanted to make sure is known. toxoplasmosis is, that is not false. That is not a false claim. Please do not clean your litter box. If you are pregnant, are doing, you are a body with your body. Let your husband clean the litter box. that is one major criticism I had because I, I was like, there's no way that's true. And I Googled it it is absolutely real. the other things were really, yeah, the things we discussed, the monologues made it feel unreal. it was too dark. So depending on what medium you were using, what platform you were using to watch it, some of the jump scares got lost on me. But other than that, I think there was a lot of, like, continuity was beautiful in the beginning. I was so confused. Like all these younger actors, I was like, why do they hire all these young actors and make them put on old makeup? You know, at the very first episode I noticed it. so that was a criticism I have early on. That is obviously clarified. I don't know that they really explained the baby's gone. cause that also doesn't really relate to anything I think in the Bible necessarily. Obviously babies still get born angels involved. Gabriel announces obviously a very important birth, but otherwise I, no, not a lot. Do you have much?

Anne:

Well, I think that the aging makeup was pretty bad. Like could they have done a better job, to make it less

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

and with the monologues, like, yes, I acknowledge people don't talk like that, but I don't care. I like every monologue, I understand the criticism, but it doesn't bother me. overall, I think this show's a masterpiece. in reference to your question the baby, I, I think it's that returns you to an ideal age, Like Father Paul

Caroline:

the same age.

Anne:

to this. Yeah. But maybe her ideal age was not that long ago. or maybe it returns you to a state of kind of purity or something. I'm not saying babies are parasites, but think Sarah talks about that, how a baby is dependent on the mother and, thing is vampires can't

Caroline:

right?

Anne:

right? You know, that's why

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

and fell, she has to not be a vampire right before she gets pregnant, I think. procreate.

Caroline:

Oh yeah.

Anne:

it was about that.

Caroline:

These, these vampires don't glitter. That's, I guess,

Anne:

thank God.

Caroline:

know,

Anne:

question. Do any other unanswered questions?

Caroline:

I don't think I do. missing case was my main question. Yeah. The, we talked about that.

Anne:

one question I have is, what's the end a

Caroline:

Well, yeah.

Anne:

a vampire?

Caroline:

but I think, in this instance, as you said, this vampire is not like the classic vampires who are smart and sexy and whatever. This is very animalistic vampire. So he's just like food, food. He's not strategically thinking, he's just like, I need food. so the way I took it was. That they were going to eat all the non-Catholics on the island and then spread further and then just keep spreading. And then they'd have millions, you know, millions of people before it became a problem. And obviously they don't care. I mean, much like elected officials in our world today, they don't care what happens after millions of people are gone. it, it's not their problem, it's someone else's problem. So I didn't, I didn't have too much of a problem with that cause it was clear to me that that vampire was not

Anne:

That

Caroline:

strategizing.

Anne:

was not. No. Well, that brings me to the, another question I have is how sentient and intelligent is this angel vampire? Like it's been locked into tune for thousands of years, does it just take the opportunity to use Monsignor Pruitt's mistake, right. And be like, okay, yeah, I'm an angel. Sure. I'll put on like the outfit and I'll, use your rituals to share Of going on, just some, how, how did

Caroline:

I felt like it was about as aware as the dog, if you train it of like stay in this area and you do this thing or whatever, it'll listen, it's not in control of any of it. it. It's unfortunate because as you said, if this creature is like thousands of years old or even hundreds of years old, if it was smart enough, it would've found someone else to manipulate to have its great plan. So it's just a matter of poor luck on everyone else's part that it found Monsignor Pruitt

Anne:

Why do you think Bev poisoned father Paul? Because I actually read somewhere that Mike Flanagan didn't intend for us dies when he's resurrected, like he foams at the mouth just

Caroline:

Exactly like the dog, and she puts the thing back on the shelf.

Anne:

the poison multiple know, and I was like,

Caroline:

Is that before or after she sees the picture?

Anne:

I'm not

Caroline:

I think it's after. Yeah. I think she sees the picture she just thinks something evil or crazy is going on here, and then she shifts,

Anne:

so arguably she was trying to kill him because maybe she power she thinks he's bad, but then she sees it

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

the end and and back against it still alive at the end? What do you

Caroline:

No, I don't think so because of what you mentioned earlier about her legs. I was surprised it could fly away with that many holes in its wings. but no, I don't think it

Anne:

Like

Caroline:

That's true. That's true.

Anne:

Warren fire on it. fire and then it's fine, half an hour later or something. I guess, how fast does it heal and how fast can it fly? it out fly the rising sun?

Caroline:

and if,

Anne:

think it didn't.

Caroline:

yeah, if it heals so fast, why doesn't it heal while she's cutting it? or before she's done cutting.

Anne:

it heals that fast.

Caroline:

Okay. I.

Anne:

to me were just talking about were at that point. Having finished it, do you think it's Pro Catholic?

Caroline:

I don't.

Anne:

No. Okay. Yeah.

Caroline:

I understand.

Anne:

I

Caroline:

is very anti-religion, I was like, what? You know when miracles started happening, that's where I was.

Anne:

Okay. Yeah. It ultimately does not, I mean, I almost feel like it's kind of neutral, it does show the beauty of some people's faith, like Ed and Annie. I don't think there's anything wrong their faith. but how it can be used for horror, and saw online, and this is not my idea, so I don't wanna use it or who you become It's

Caroline:

Yeah, I, because, sorry, I wanna amend my comment in that my husband is not anti-religion. He's anti organized religion. I think this does a good job of showing what individuals can do with faith, because I will say one of the things that confused me, Catholicism versus my faith I grew up with was this whole of this hierarchy to God, which doesn't exist in what I had. So I do feel like. Having these hierarchies these celibacy agreements and other elements of secret really does create an atmosphere that lends itself very well to manipulation, judgment and exploitation. feel like you are empowered as an individual to talk directly to God or talk directly to your deceased loved ones and have that, yes, of course, just like people have therapists, you could have a spiritual guider that is a minister, who could be a man or a woman and could be married with a family of their own. that can help you if you have questions, but there's no reason that you can't just do that yourself.

Anne:

yeah, overall the show, I think shows the horrors of religion, but also is respectful of

Caroline:

faith Yeah.

Anne:

it brings people. you know, what you've just said about, having a, someone who's a minister or a religious figure as of a therapist, But that person should be able to be married. I think this brings us to kind of the real horror beneath the surface. talked about celibacy and you know, I think about when Father Paul reflects on the wasted years, when he loved Millie, I suppose you could call him an incel, but I didn't see it like that. I think it was about loss, you know, and it's you never felt like a sin. And she was never a sin. She was never a mistake. So I think it's more about loss and regret, that relationship was never gonna happen in Millie's mind. sad that it, the reason it didn't happen for him is because he has to be celibate and he rips off his collar right in one of his final scenes before they kiss. I

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

over their body of

Caroline:

Yep.

Anne:

dead daughter, he shouldn't have had to live like that.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

talked about other. Deeper horror, the separation of church and state, the grief of miscarriage. There's the impact of an environmental disaster on a community. You know, Crockett is this dying island, and I think you can draw comparisons to, in America that have depended on mining or a local factory. And when people are in economic distress, they look for solutions. historically, know, have sometimes latched onto the wrong ideas. When you're angry, when you're depressed, when you're desperate feel like you've been abandoned. You look for a strong leader, someone who offers hope, and that's how people can be harmed or manipulated by a powerful or powerful institution.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

And we, we've talked about dispensable victims. gun violence, you know, Lisa's paralysis is caused by gun violence, and mistakes. It's just an accident, but it's still life ruining potentially. impact of alcoholism, I. know, Mike is a huge Stephen King fan, and they're both with addiction. So that aspect of the show is very personal. We haven't talked about this much, but you know, Riley's an alcoholic. so I think that's another, that underscores all this.

Caroline:

I mean, not a lot of people survive, right? Yeah. Have your own boat. Yeah., Make sure you have an escape route

Anne:

both lived, grew up in New England, you know, not far from the beach. I lived in a town that had a yacht club and certain people would, wanna party out on boats and I hated it. I hated going out on a boat because I felt so trapped. If I'm at a party at a house and I But if I'm on a boat, I'm stuck. And

Caroline:

for sure.

Anne:

feeling stuck situation. To you're in a cult. Call

Caroline:

Or your mom

Anne:

somebody.

Caroline:

call somebody. Yeah. Nobody intends to join a cult. joins this inspirational thing that they think is gonna give them the answer'cause they're in a vulnerable state. you find yourself in that situation, that's when you call your dad, mom, or a trusted adult.

Anne:

get a second opinion on what they're offering good to be true, it probably is. And you know, I with ghosts and the burbs and just a thousand other stories. There's no fountain of youth. There's no coming back from the dead. don't make deals with the devil. Be careful that

Caroline:

So dumb

Anne:

hoisted by

Caroline:

in the best way. Okay. So, IHeart, Huck Bees, which I mentioned, if anyone hasn't watched it, it's very delightful. It's funny weird in all of the ways that people who are darkness might enjoy my husband and I quoted constantly in our house.

Anne:

my palate cleanser is what we do in the Shadows, the movie and the TV show. Because it's vampires, it's all the tropes. It's turning people into vampires by getting them to drink blood. It's, but it's delightful and funny. So I highly recommend both the movie and the TV show, recommendations. If you like this, you should watch The Exorcist. There are definite. Allusions to it. I'm pretty sure in the book the demon that possesses, Reagan is is also released from a cave or a dig site in a rock. So I think that he was definitely referencing the Exorcist there. And also the demon wears a fedora like the priest in the. Movie. Obviously all the other Mike Flanagan shows and movies, especially Haunting of Hillhouse. It's so good. you know, Bly Manor is amazing, followed the House of Usher. Midnight Club was a bit disappointing, but I still liked it overall, even if it didn't the quality that we have here. I mentioned Salem's lot, also a vampire story. 30 days of night is this wild vampire movie about vampires infiltrating a small isolated town in Alaska when it's dark all the time because of the time of year. So that's kind of fun to watch as well. anything vampires, if you're looking for a more literary pairing, hell is the absence of God is a fantasy. Short story, maybe. It's novella, I'm not sure by Ted Chang about terrifying angels who cause as much damage as they do good and who, who gets a miracle and who doesn't. there's a Korean horror series called Hellbound where angels the time of someone's inescapable death and the resulting religious hysteria cult-like following that happens. So it's kind of cool. the crucible and fear is also used to justify atrocities. We mentioned seven. the X-Files and scream. That was the third poster on had

Caroline:

Ah.

Anne:

so that's another one to watch.'cause Riley has all those posters in the room. So I'm guessing Mike all three of those, If you need some competition for the most charismatic TV priest award, Fleabag has a great, the hot priest.

Caroline:

Hell yeah.

Anne:

Go back to Friday night Lights to see young, Riley, Matt Sarason. Uh, clear eyes, full heart. Can't lose, uh, mystic Pizza to see the Dr. Sarah in one of her first shows when she's Cat. Elliot from is Ed, so you've gotta go watch ET again. It totally holds up. And it's got my favorite trope of kids in a small town riding around on bikes, which we see at the beginning of this as well. Jaws, it's an island. The dynamic between she Hassan and Wade definitely is playing homage to that. There's a Stephen King short story called The Reach. really

Caroline:

I mentioned Interview with Vampire and iHeart Huckabees, obviously, I agree with your, what we do in the Shadows amazing series, which you could spend a lot of time on. There's also a podcast called, passages that I guess, describes, smut novels normally, but they have one season that covers the book for Twilight. So I've never read any Twilight books, but, the first Twilight book is covered on this podcast, and that is a much more enjoyable way for me to think about putting myself something like Twilight. that's, something I would recommend.

Anne:

In

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

they more first twilight came out, there was a fun.

Caroline:

I think that's fair. I don't love so many messages from Twilight, which I think are called out very well in passages. And to be fair, I was not a person who read it, so I am only basking in the glory of snaring it,

Anne:

target

Caroline:

Okay, good. Another thing I would recommend if you care about class action lawsuits, which are mentioned after the oil spill, is, Aaron Brockovich, which is an incredible film that if you haven't watched, please do. It's very, very good. I did take business law in grad school. It is really amazing that they were able to accomplish the minuscule amount that those families got compared to what they deserve. So it's a good story to hear.

Anne:

Recommend

Caroline:

obviously the whole time thinking about this whole place that's ripe for resurrection, this place that's ripe for a miracle, this place that's ripe for someone to come along with all the answers. And then there was the Kool-Aid scene, and my first inclination was Jonestown. However, that story, even though it's worthwhile, we're not gonna discuss it because it is just, it's just a bummer. Like it is just a tragic, horrible situation. So what we're gonna discuss is a very adjacent, cult Heaven's Gate. So we are going to be watching the Heaven's Gate docuseries the cult of all cults we're gonna have fun talking about this one. There's gonna be a lot more to be like, what about in this one?

Anne:

Okay. in addition to Heaven's Gate, we have a summer special Partly because it's the 50th anniversary of Jaws, partly because we just love it and partly because we've actually just spent a few days together in Narragansett, Rhode Island, a summer town that needs summer dollars. We want to do a special on Jaws next week. It will be mid August, it's not too late to get your Jaws screening in for the summer. And then we'll be discussing it next week.

Caroline:

buy yourself a case of Ganett for the watch.

Anne:

Crush it like Quint. And don't forget that, We will be reading Carrie by Stephen King after that. So if you need to get started on that, that's coming up in the future. Mrs. White is a real Bev Keen, all right. Thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Check us out on Instagram at Drawn to Darkness Pod. Tell a friend who is also drawn to darkness. Write a Review on iTunes, If like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano. And special thanks to Harry Kidd. You can also find him on Instagram and Spotify. Mike Flanagan's Netflix series. Midnight Mass is about a fishing no. Mike Flanagan's Netflix series. Midnight Mass,

Caroline:

Fishing,

Anne:

the Cushioning.

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