9 - Heaven's Gate - The Cult of Cults

“This cult has everything.” – Caroline, channeling Stefon from SNL,  before we unpack the many strange and disturbing facets of the four-part docuseries Heaven’s Gate: The Cult of Cults, and one of America’s most infamous mass suicides. This cult mixes a strange blend of UFO mythology, musical theatre and the apocalypse. Starting with a light-hearted chat about what kinds of cults we might actually fall for (spoiler: cats, lots of TV, introvert-friendly, and insomnia-curing ones), we'll explore how a desire for belonging, meaning, and transcendence can be exploited by supposedly charismatic leaders like Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles. Expect deep dives into gender erasure, alienation, as well as strange footwear and last meal choices.

We examine the playbook of cult recruitment, the trauma left behind, and the sobering reminder that nobody joins a cult—they're vulnerable and join something that seems like it might save them.

Trigger warning:

genital mutilation, mass suicide, religion, cults, abuse, and sexual repression

Palate cleanser:

Need something lighter after all that darkness? Check out @ozzymanreviews, an Australian TikTok/YouTube voiceover creator who narrates animal videos in hilarious accents.

If you liked this try:

• Sounds like a Cult the podcast, 
• Mike Flanagan's film, Dr. Sleep (trigger warning for traumatic death of a child). 
• For Marshall Applewhite's faves, try Star Trek, the Sound of Music, the X-Files, 
• Under the Banner of Heaven ( true crime nonfiction meets religion).
• The Handmaid's Tale and Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler 
• Midsummer (more cult vibes)
• The novel In the Clearing (fictionalized version of the Australian cult the Family). 
• Tower of Babylon by Ted Chiang (a story of a society that believes heaven is a real place in the sky and build a tower to reach it)
• The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog  (impact of childhood trauma by a psychologist who worked with kids from the branch Davidian cult).
• Yellowjackets. 1984 (group think)
• More cults: The Vow, Love Has Won, and The Way Down.

Homework: Inspired by the shaming of sex and religious extremism, our next episode subject Stephen King's first iconic novel Carrie.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His Instagram is @harryjkidd and you can also find him on Spotify. https://open.spotify.com/artist/43BiFkkOHykD8n9g4z0Qd7

Transcript

Anne: 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you already know from years of listening to True Crime podcasts, like my favorite murder to call your dad, if you're in a cult, we're here for you. name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows and books.

Caroline: 0:29

And

Anne: 0:33

I wanna start by asking you what sort of cult would you be vulnerable to? Okay. A cult based around cats

Caroline: 0:43

Yeah. And actually there is, another series maybe we'll get to at some point about a

Anne: 0:49

really?

Caroline: 0:50

yeah. you know, a really hard question for me because I so enjoy being by myself so much of the day. I need to be alone. If there were a cult where was introverted and wanted to watch movies, that would probably get me as well. I think I'm gonna have a hard time finding these cults.

Anne: 1:09

So you would not want a checkmate, like a buddy, watching your Every move.

Caroline: 1:14

god. buddy.

Anne: 1:17

Oh God.

Caroline: 1:18

I've hated that term since I heard about it from exercising. Another that people do they have an accountability buddy or whatever. I think also in, substance use disorders. But anyway. No, that sounds like a nightmare.

Anne: 1:30

I, I would be, vulnerable to a cult based around watching TV by myself as well. That sounds great. Um, on a more serious note, I, I think I'm vulnerable to food purity messaging as somebody who's, you know, had an eating disorder in high school, and at times as an adult, I've fallen into like no sugar or Whole Foods keto. I can see myself falling into something that controls your diet you know, I, I'm vulnerable to that. I think I'm nowhere near joining a cult for that reason. But I could see that kind of cult drawing me in, uh, or a prepper cult. Like a Sarah Connor preparing for the robot takeover just like doing chin ups and you know, accumulating, supplies in a bunker. Because there's definitely a part of me that thinks the people in the middle of nowhere with the bunkers and 20 year supply of canned food are the ones that have the right idea. So I could see falling for that sort of cult.

Caroline: 2:28

the number one reason why wouldn't join a cult is control. is no way be comfortable with relinquishing anything to this level of control. and I also, Am the child of an Iron Curtain refugee, and so I think I have been very programmed to be independent and skeptical of

Anne: 2:49

Hmm.

Caroline: 2:49

of everything,

Anne: 2:51

I am very skeptical as well, so that would probably, and, and I'm just too busy. I don't have time to get sucked in to, to go to UFO meetings. I mean, there's no way. you know, you know what else would make me join a cult? An insomnia cure. A cult that had some promise of a deep and dreamless sleep. I could see that, drawing me in. I'm not a good sleeper.

Caroline: 3:14

I maybe really positioning this question is less about the message, which I think they make. A good point of this here is that. The, The, moment you are at in your life and what you're seeking is really the thing when you stumble upon someone with the right message and the right answer, that's when it happens and it can happen right to anyone.

Anne: 3:37

It's about being vulnerable. now, today we're gonna talk about Heaven's Gate, the cults of cults. A cult. I would not in any way in. Hell be vulnerable too. first of all, they, they ask if you procrastinate. That's, that's a no go for them. And that's something I would not be cut out for. Heaven's Gate is a cult that's based around Star Trek and the Von Trapp family singers. Trigger warning, there is discussion of mass suicide in this. And we will be spoiling this documentary as well. So go off and watch it and then come back.

Caroline: 4:12

right.. Is a docuseries about the infamous Heaven's Gate cult. Started by Bonnie LTELs and Marshall Applewhite, known as Herf. They are both formerly known by many names. the most formidable, I guess would be T and Doe in 1975 with the disappearance of new age hippies on the West coast. Their story ends with the largest mass suicide event on US soil.

Anne: 4:40

So adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline: 4:44

I was question head being like, this cult has everything.

Anne: 4:52

I love that. he's perfect for that.

Caroline: 4:54

Yeah. So not an description like this called truly has pretty much everything I can think of. I, I think except for the controlling, the food isn't really much of a thing

Anne: 5:07

No, it is, they massively control food. talk about it much in the documentary, but they do. Yeah.

Caroline: 5:14

talk about it in the documentary. control food? Like what foods are being eaten or from a weight perspective?

Anne: 5:22

a removing the pleasure of eating to to the higher level. So I listened to six hours of last podcast on the left to supplement this. And they talk more about the food aspect. So the documentary. Really doesn't mention it at all, but there's a lot more to it. I'm gonna quote Bluey and say Wackadoo, is that insensitive? To call them a funny word for crazy, but I mean, I don't wanna sound too judgmental and I know they're like complex reasons for people who aren't mentally ill to fall into this sort of trap. It's about vulnerability, but they believed in some pretty bonkers stuff. Yeah. Well, my journey with this, I am surprised that I didn't know much about this. you know, given that I was a teenager in 1997, I feel like it should have been on my radar. I don't even remember the HaBO comment coming. no, not really. I must have been way too into my teenage social life to be paying attention to the stars. But I mean, and it's weird that I don't know about this because I know so much about. Waco and David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. I was heavily into that several years earlier when I was far too young to be. so yeah, I really didn't know much about this. I associated Heaven's Gate with doomsday mass suicide, but that's really all I knew. you know, as I've said before, I am into a lot of kind of paranormal, weird out there ideas, like I've mentioned that I am into possession and ghosts and Poltergeist and even Bigfoot, uh, disclaimer, I'm not into like the shape-shifting alien, interdimensional, Bigfoot that some people believe in. But I'm open to the idea of a reclusive, intelligent, undiscovered primate that is responsible for missing hikers and hunters. But I'm not into aliens and I'm not super into cults as a true crime topic, and this is both. So I guess it's just not something I would I've ever been drawn to. And you know, having said that, I'm super into. Human psychology and what makes people behave the way they do. So I found this very interesting. about you?

Caroline: 7:16

shout True Crime Obsessed. They covered this docuseries on their Patreon. so, it's not on the main feed. You would have to become a patron, but I've listened to that multiple times. And, yeah, I do love cult stuff. I have to say, I'm not normally interested in aliens in space. I believe there are aliens, but I don't know how much they care about

Anne: 7:39

I.

Caroline: 7:39

than we care about that. You know, like, I don't, I don't think it's, independence Day. But I. really love this story too because there's so many twists and turns that are so extreme. Like the whole line the two sociologists who go undercover and try to join and like, go to this post office and look in the hundredth page of the phone book, and then that'll be an address. And then it's like, it's not an address, it's a location. And they're just like on this mountain. And then like people in a car appear like men in black, you know? Like it's so Insane.

Anne: 8:15

that.

Caroline: 8:15

Insane.

Anne: 8:16

Like they really were able to, develop an air of mystery, which I think would draw people in. Right. Like that's exciting. Yeah.

Caroline: 8:30

is just, bizarre each thing by its own and then there's just so many of them

Anne: 8:35

Hmm. Yeah. do you believe in aliens,

Caroline: 8:37

I mean, I don't think we're the beings in the galaxy. I don't know that there are any close enough that there's ever gonna be an

Anne: 8:45

right?

Caroline: 8:46

maybe,

Anne: 8:47

yeah. I think I'm like you. I, I don't believe that they are t and doe and I don't believe that they're wearing us like vehicles in some kind of men in black sort of way and infiltrating our society and choosing people to take to heaven. But yeah, I definitely believe in the likelihood of other life forms out in this massive, massive universe. what were some of the things that reminded you of.

Caroline: 9:11

but also, it kind of reminded me of like, I've been watching righteous gemstones, not to go too heavy on religion, but there's a lot of interesting religious ceremonies with weird outfits and everything that they have going on there. So I guess it reminded me of other religions and religions I'm not that familiar with that have kind of extreme wardrobes and regular things. It also reminded me about parks and rec, I

Anne: 9:41

Yes,

Caroline: 9:41

a lot of like town meaning atmospheres, Yeah, I totally forgot about those people. Yes. It did remind me of when we all thought we were gonna die in 2012,'cause of the mine

Anne: 9:52

And Y 2K 2000,

Caroline: 9:54

Right.

Anne: 9:55

That's a clock.

Caroline: 9:56

the

Anne: 9:56

Yeah.

Caroline: 9:56

are gonna

Anne: 9:57

Yeah. But I think people were worried about apocalypse in general at the end of the, the millennium, right? Like, this is a turning point. It reminded me of, well, last week's episode because a lot of their scripture that they were basing some of their beliefs on is, you know, from the Bible. I've also started, Carrie and Book of Revelations comes up in Carrie as well. So that's three episodes in a row where this one biblical text that I know from people quoting it, I know from hearing about it, but I've never read So I started reading it and I gotta say, I gotta give these. S scripture quotas credit, where credit is due because I couldn't read one minute of that before I got really bored. And so I ended up starting, I haven't finished it yet, a last podcast on the left episode about it instead because I was like, I'd rather just hear them talk about it than read it. but yeah, I was like, this is truly bonkers stuff. So, I'm considering actually trying to read it so I know what I'm talking about. you know, you mentioned the boring town hall meeting where t and Doe are talking, or their apostles are recruiting people that gave up major, what we do in the shadows, vibes for me as well.

Caroline: 11:03

you said I'd rather Listen to them, talk about it, then read it. And I just wanna say for listeners here, that's generally my vibe, which is why you're gonna get less books from me, books from Annie,

Anne: 11:16

you choose the best medium for whatever true crime we wanna talk about. Whether that's a book, a podcast, a documentary. I also, I have almost the same shoes as Marshall Applewhite like I have black Nikes with the white swoosh and they're my running shoes. And they do, I do, yeah. very cheap at the Nike outlet I looked at their shoes and I was like, those are my shoes. I know they're not the exact model, but yeah, I have the same shoes.

Caroline: 11:43

out series, was that they all were wearing the same outfits and the same shoes, and the shoes were sticking out from under the blankets because so many people referenced that as being burned into their mind.'cause they saw it on the news and it was so wild,

Anne: 12:00

Well, now I'm going to think about that every time I go running. Thanks Obama. Thanks erf. Yeah. Before we get too deeply into this, I think we should point out that they didn't actually really call themselves heaven scape from the beginning. That was what they called their website. They were often referred to as the UFO cult, and they tended to call themselves the class. what did odie mean again?

Caroline: 12:24

it it was their last name,

Anne: 12:26

but like, where did it come from? I remember hearing about this and I can't remember. And, and the, Like, it was like ode meant something and od was like, make it cute. like, I'm feeling cute od

Caroline: 12:36

hey, to and

Anne: 12:39

would your

Caroline: 12:42

I wrote down, Annie, what is your name? And I actually, went to Reddit and tried to find other websites to answer this question because I was super stressed out it's supposed to be three consonants and then ODY. But your name doesn't have three

Anne: 12:58

I dunno. But

Caroline: 12:58

So I was like, what? What are you supposed to do with that? but I found out there that did use vowels. So you could be an oie.

Anne: 13:08

there was definitely an whose name started with I, I can't remember who it was, but.

Caroline: 13:13

Yeah, but they were saying it it had no,

Anne: 13:18

Yeah, that's what I would call you. Kdi?

Caroline: 13:20

spelled, C-R-L-O-D-Y,

Anne: 13:23

Yes.

Caroline: 13:24

even though it's like Klo.

Anne: 13:25

I could do like my first name, middle initial, like, or Zody. Uh, what about Zody? cause that's to my, surname. Where's the M coming from?

Caroline: 13:37

No.

Anne: 13:38

Oh, nah. Oh, Nadi. Okay. All right. I'll take it. Nadi. All right.

Caroline: 13:44

cool.

Anne: 13:45

it's Nadi. I love it. You can call me that from now on.

Caroline: 13:49

too.

Anne: 13:51

right. Corrodi, names were a very big part of this.

Caroline: 13:56

I just don't think corrodi Sounds

Anne: 13:58

Well, it sounds like corroding,

Caroline: 13:59

corroding.

Anne: 14:02

Um, well, I mean, aren't we all, um,

Caroline: 14:06

continue.

Anne: 14:07

so the names thing I guess this was part of the leaving behind of your identity, which is a cult tactic. we've discussed in the past that I'm pretty good with names, right? Because I teach and I have new classes all the time with new groups of students, and I have to remember them. I was really struggling. It's like T Dough, Bonnie Herf, nettles, Applewhite, pig Guinea, the two, and then all the Odie names. And t and Tea and Doe. it's pretty cute where it came from.

Caroline: 14:35

I'm just going to, the elephant in the room, this happened because he was ashamed to be gay and that he had a reverend

Anne: 14:42

Yeah.

Caroline: 14:43

Like you could have stopped that Just

Anne: 14:47

Yeah,

Caroline: 14:48

I don't know. Although, I guess he did go to therapy and that's where he met

Anne: 14:51

shame is a very powerful psychological force and he would've grown up feeling pretty ashamed of himself and he shouldn't have,

Caroline: 14:59

Right.

Anne: 15:00

So basically they believed that T and Doe named after the Dore Me song from the Sound of Music. Yes. That's where they got their names. were the witnesses of the book of Revelations. I. And that our bodies were temporary vehicles that could be shed if we could successfully shed our attachments, our addictions, our humanness, and you could graduate to a next level body. you had to overcome your impulses like a caterpillar, and then you would ultimately be picked up by a UFO and brought to heaven, which was a real place and space. Now, their beliefs evolved a lot throughout time. I think originally they were like, your physical body will actually be picked up and transformed into this alien like thing. But, you know, certain things interfere with that belief. And, they evolved and do, comes to believe that he is another iteration of Jesus Christ, but that Jesus was an alien and that ultimately they had to, dispose of their human bodies or vehicles, which resulted in this horrific mass suicide side. so this was like this fusion of sci-fi and religion. Like they had, Buddhist ideas and new age stuff and spiritualism and Christianity, but also like all this kind of sci-fi, UFO star trekky stuff. And the horrible impact of all this is it resulted in, people leaving behind their families, abandoning children, abandoning spouses, which was kind of the opposite of a lot of cults, which wanted you to kind of bring your children in. so I thought that was kind of interesting, kind of outside the normal cult playbook.

Caroline: 16:32

shed light wanna just say a few other ways that I thought this quote was different. until T dies, there is not a singular leader, right? Which is also unique. There's not usually more than one kind of head that are on somewhat equal Footing, even though she was the elder, as he said. another one is like forced labor. It seems like there wasn't really much of that going on. They, they did do work that they were paid for and that the community did utilize those funds, but there's no MLM element, there's no you have to do all this stuff for free, just for the master. It was much more communal. Also, like you mentioned, the melding of different ideas, was really more in place when T was still alive. But once she dies, it definitely like rears towards the Christian conservative side of things. Thanks to DOE the fact that he didn't just go to therapy.

Anne: 17:31

Well, yeah, T dying should have been the could this all be bullshit moment? Right? Because if she was actually an alien from outer space, who was the witness to Revelations just dying of a human, the weakness shouldn't have happened. That was the opportunity to be like, maybe we should rethink things. But instead he doubles down in the most dangerous way. I mean, a lot of what they were doing, again, when you compare to other cults. Was pretty benign, As far as I know. There was no sexual abuse of children. I mean, often, you know, the cult playbook is, well, we have all these rules for the members, but the cult leaders and the cult, you know, the people high up in the hierarchy are abusing people. And I don't think that was happening. if it was, it hasn't really been spoken of.

Caroline: 18:18

consider

Anne: 18:20

Oh, yeah. I'm not saying there wasn't bad stuff. I'm, I'm talking early days.

Caroline: 18:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne: 18:24

you know, it, it's, they were consenting adults. It's a choice. And they weren't abusing anybody. Now. They were harming people. They were abandoning their children like that. Molly Ringwald lady, She did look like Molly Ringwald. Right. That's not just me. Um, especially when you look at the old pictures of her from like the eighties, you know, her parents loved her when she was 10 years old, and she's having to be the adult in the room and being like, this is crazy. Why would you leave me for this crazy UFO message? you know, there's genuine harm and loss and sadness that this cult caused, but to the worst of the worst, most of it was pretty benign, at least at the beginning.

Caroline: 18:59

Yeah. I mean, about,

Anne: 19:02

Yeah. I, I can't remember if I brought this up yet, but the family in Australia, have you heard of that one? So she basically like collected children. She would, she was the opposite. Instead of convincing people to abandon their children and come to the cult, she was convincing. People to hand over their children to her, and she was starving them and abusing them. you might've seen pictures where like, there's a bunch of little blonde children with short haircuts, like she's dying their hair blonde, so they all look alike, so they all look like her children. compare it to that and it's like, well, that's so much worse. No, I mean, there's so many worse things out there. I thought the connection to Christianity was interesting, and it just got me thinking about the formation of religions and how, what starts as a cult, right? Like, I think all religions start as a cult and because it's starts small, right? And when does it become a religion? You know, is it about, numbers, power? How they've established things. And I think what all cults and religions probably do is. Latch onto an existing belief system, and they've latched onto Christianity, and Christianity does, does that or did that. We have holidays based around equinoxes and solstice. because the pagans we're celebrating the change of seasons like Easter. I, I did some research on Easter with my kids recently because they're like, why do we have eggs and bunnies when Jesus died on the cross? it makes zero sense, right? And it's because it was a Pagan festival celebrating, you know, symbols of fertility and new life at, at spring, right? So you can see the connection of how Christianity starting as a cult, followed by a few latched onto an existing belief system, and then gained power and followers and ultimately became, you know, the original religion we know today. So having skate is only a cult because it. Only had 39 people who believed in it and not

Caroline: 20:49

Yeah,

Anne: 20:50

over the course of time. So how do you think people get sucked into

Caroline: 20:55

think this to compliment it because they make a whole point of showing a clip, in the wake of the mass suicide of a person saying, I wish. people would talk more about what led up to this than the end of this, and I think are a lot of people that are in circumstances where they're searching for something, like Sawyer, who was a very interesting person to be following throughout this whole thing. or they're on acid like

Anne: 21:25

Yeah.

Caroline: 21:25

lady mentions.

Anne: 21:26

Well, yeah. I guess these people are leftover from the 1960s counterculture and hippies and everything, and they're still looking for something in some cases. yeah, I know we're saying things like crazy and bonkers and wackadoo, but it's probably not the right language. It's vulnerability and that's how normal smart professional people who have something missing and happen to come across this at the right time when they're ripe for the picking. I was speaking to a friend who has a connection to someone who spent decades in a cult in Australia. and this person joined when she was 18 and homeless, right? So if she had had a safety net, there's no way she would've ended up in this cult.

Caroline: 22:04

I trafficking involved in some cult circumstances one isn't that, I mean, this one really is those parks and rec meetings I just can't even imagine attending those. And what spaces are those spaces? Are they just like renting town halls,

Anne: 22:20

would be my assumption.

Caroline: 22:21

do

Anne: 22:21

Yeah.

Caroline: 22:22

cause I don't think we have a space like that. I don't know where they would do in. cause we usually have our town halls like in the school

Anne: 22:30

Yeah. Like a school gym or something.

Caroline: 22:32

But the there, the school gym is not about to be Like come on meeting

Anne: 22:37

Yeah. The school might want to maintain some separation of state and cult, right?

Caroline: 22:44

Yeah.

Anne: 22:48

Uh, yeah. I mean there's just rec centers and halls and stuff I don't know, it was the seventies. Maybe the rules were different. there's also perhaps in some cases a desire to hand off responsibility. perhaps you're a person who's not happy in your shitty job or you're not enjoying parenthood, and this is the excuse to escape from the reality of all the responsibilities that we have in what we consider normal life.

Caroline: 23:14

with a We've both lost parents and we were talking about, you know, this is the only time that we were like, I wish I was Catholic. Because then it would just be like, they would just tell me everything I'm supposed to do. I don't have to come up with anything. I don't have to say anything that isn't a scripture. if someone could just come to me with a menu and have this be done, that would be great. So maybe that's the cult. I would join someone who would do the things I don't wanna decide

Anne: 23:39

Yeah, well, I think that's part of it, surrendering to a higher power, Whether that's a spiritual god or an actual person. Responsibility is tough. Making decisions is tough. showing up every day as a parent or to work is difficult. And if you join a cult like this, you don't have to do that.

Caroline: 23:55

true.

Anne: 23:55

let's talk about the tactics they used. I mentioned earlier, and again, this wasn't in the documentary, but according to the last podcast on the left deep dive, they did control food. We've talked about the, disassociation from their identities by changing their names. We've talked about the haircuts that they all had to conform to, Some things that we haven't discussed too much was the no privacy. That they had these checkmates to watch them, which would not work for you.

Caroline: 24:25

least wanna be friends

Anne: 24:27

Right.

Caroline: 24:27

So it's like you're also forced not just to be with a person, but a person you can't stand.

Anne: 24:33

What a nightmare. Because there's a lot of people I can't stand and I don't wanna spend time with any of them.

Caroline: 24:37

know. to imagine like if I, I'm to be around people, like maybe you don't get along with. And if I had to sit next to the person that I couldn't stand the lead, I think I would, yeah, I would quit. There's no way I would stay

Anne: 24:52

Well, you sound like, Leslie, the really pretty old lady. Do you remember her? She's only in the beginning.

Caroline: 24:57

Oh

Anne: 24:59

Yeah, she was so pretty. when they showed the old pic, she's gorgeous now. but she talked about being like a hippie and wanting freedom and the second they like matched her up with a checkmate that she hated, she was like, I am out. And then we never hear from her again in the documentary. Yeah. Well that had a lot to do with it for her. Yeah.

Caroline: 25:18

Right. Yeah. She

Anne: 25:22

Yeah. This is the opposite of what I wanted. I really liked that. I think he's Steve Hassan, the cult expert with the really like gentle face. who I'm talking about? maybe. I think so. And he's the one who's counseling, um, Dick Joslyn later.

Caroline: 25:40

both of them.

Anne: 25:41

I might be getting my guys mixed up, but you know, they talked about these dehumanizing techniques and what it means to be brainwashed. And it's all about that loss of autonomy. so we've got no privacy, new names, dressing the same. but the other thing we haven't talked about is the, new terminology,

Caroline: 25:58

right?

Anne: 25:59

you were talking about last week with midnight mass, that there's all this terminology in Catholicism that you were like, what, how do I not even know this? And so I think knowing the words is a massive part of being part of the culture.

Caroline: 26:12

reference this podcast at the end, but, there's a great podcast, sounds like a cult. I listened to an episode about working at a nonprofit, because I worked at a nonprofit. And the thing that made me go, oh my God, maybe it is a cult, was this aspect, this special terminology, you know,'cause it's something when a new employee joins, we're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they don't understand anything, and you're like, you'll get it. we're in, you could be in soon too if you try.

Anne: 26:40

and, and are you, love bombing them, like making them feel super welcome? Mm-hmm. Because that's another cult tactic is the initial love bomb. Yeah, I was looking through Sounds like a cult episodes. I've listened to the PTA moms one, but I kind of wanna listen to, there's a podcasting one, there's a horse girls episode. I was a horse girl. I, s

Caroline: 27:04

if you think that might be the cult you

Anne: 27:06

I am much more healthy now emotionally about that sort of stuff than I used to be, but I, I do recognize that I have that flaw in me. yeah, that's a great podcast. My brother-in-law is a Disney adult and he's slowly turning my sister into one. so I think I might recommend that one to them. so yeah, even though this, particular cult didn't actually make it physically hard to leave as some cults do by creating this highly controlled lack of autonomy, self-sealing system, they made it really psychologically hard to leave once you've become it. I think

Caroline: 27:39

some of the people, that we meet Sawyer and, was his name, the other guy.

Anne: 27:45

Frank.

Caroline: 27:46

The daughter, Molly Ringwald, what you just mentioned, actually, I can't believe I forgot to say this other aspect that's so different. he sent them all home and they were able to just go home and only like one person didn't come back.

Anne: 28:00

Was that a test of loyalty? I, apparently, and again, not talked about in the documentary he, he ghosted people who weren't fully committed. Like, you know how you talked about that meet here, you know, check this PO Box thing. Apparently there were certain people that were kind of talking back a bit and he said, okay, well you guys go get jobs for a little bit and then come back, we'll meet you here. And then just like never turned up, which was a gift in the end probably for those people. Um. Now we haven't talked much about the shaming of sex in terms of shedding your human impulses to reach a higher level. you have talked about how perhaps a lot of this is based around the fact that Apple White grew up gay in a time where it wasn't acceptable to be that way, so he really wanted to shed all sexuality and gender. I thought it was interesting that they used Boy George to justify no sex.

Caroline: 28:52

I that a gender fluid person on tv, but because it's effeminate, it's sloppy and offensive, And instead of all of them conforming to the male. You know, they could have all conformed to the, quote unquote female or feminine side of people,

Anne: 29:13

So they were falling into, heteronormative traps anyway. Right. Even though they were saying they were genderless. Yes. Damn. The patriarchy. I thought Sawyer talking about his guilt and shame over his nocturnal emissions was so sad and so mean, like the way they had a towel system. this something I learned from the podcast or the documentary? I can't remember, but like a towel system that you'd.

Caroline: 29:38

only know it because of at first they had sheets that you could just change. And it was sort of a no questions asked situation. But then they had a sign your name out, tell system after that.

Anne: 29:52

that. is cruel.

Caroline: 29:53

Yeah.

Anne: 29:54

I felt really bad for poor Sawyer who probably had very normal human impulses And was forced to feel ashamed and like he failed

Caroline: 30:04

And

Anne: 30:04

Um, yeah, I know. I love that. That's great. But I mean, is he saved, like Sawyer is still a true believer and it's been like decades.

Caroline: 30:17

he wasn't turned by the thing that

Anne: 30:20

I.

Caroline: 30:21

everyone else. The reveal of T's daughter gives, when they're all together after the, the mass suicide, Terry is her name. There's all these letters from her mom saying love mom, and also to conform, and you know, really instructing her to do the opposite of everything T was espousing in the cult environment.

Anne: 30:42

you might disagree with with me on this, but in some ways, for me, T is the biggest villain here. I know it wasn't under her that the mass suicide occurred, but that is so hypocritical to me. I mean, to everybody, it's not just to me. Like she writes her daughter and she doesn't bring her daughter. So she's telling everybody they need to cut off their human relationships, abandon their children while she didn't fully do it, which proves she knew it was fake. Because if you actually believed you were an alien and you were gonna go up to heaven in A UFO, you'd wanna bring your kid with you. Right? at least in the starting of the cult, she's the biggest fill-in here. And she's the one that gave, do all these crazy ideas, they meet like George McFly and Lorraine, in a nursing situation when he's vulnerable and she, starts, I think filling his head with crazy ideas and he took it too far. But, I think it starts with her.

Caroline: 31:34

my think was in charge here really? I very clearly like tease is to blame for all of this, but the more times that I've listened to this and the more times. watched it. I've really been confused because you would think, just as you said, he meets her when he is, had a nervous breakdown and she's a doctor at this mental hospital that he's at. And so you would immediately think, okay, she took advantage of a vulnerable person and she abandons her life, et cetera. And then there's also the aspect that like she's tea and he's dough. So she comes before him and she's his elder or whatever. But all these other aspects don't totally mesh way with me. Like her relationship with Terry and her interest in protecting her, you feel like if she loves her daughter that much, what's keeping her from getting back to her, There must be some attachment there. And why can't she? You know, and also the daughter mentioned Herf was always listening when they were on the phone, which is a total abusive behavior for a partner. then the other aspect, is really it pivoted to, because before, while she's still alive, none of this suicide talk is around. And, much more of it is egalitarian, communal, you know, a real matriarchal society, et cetera. And then he takes over. And I wonder, was she being held back by him at all? I don't know.

Anne: 32:58

One thing I wanna point out as we talk about tea is they keep talking about how charismatic these people are, that 20 people drop their lives. But tea just sits there in these town hall meetings looking like the most boring high school librarian you've ever encountered. But she just seemed to sit there looking like she was about to fall asleep in those meetings and, you know, she's just this witchy hippie crystal lady that for some reason people paid attention to and, and she's a hypocrite. So I'm, pretty mad at tea, but. come on. Which I just looked great. Uh, but you know, having said that, nobody was getting castrated under tee's watch, so that was pretty crazy. I mean, I do wonder if, tea was kind of controlling dough and then tea dies, Sawyer does talk about how there were some really more zealous members and that perhaps some of the most extreme ideas were being fed to dough through them. be like, who's gonna put their hand up for castration first? you know, that to me just seems pretty crazy. But it just made me wonder, how in charge is do even when he is their leader? you know, I felt really bad for. Dick Joslyn, who was also gay and probably made to feel ashamed you know, for his kind of sexy seventies Kendall Look when Doe says that his vehicle was attracted to Dick Joslyn's vehicle. I wonder how much that had to do with his ultimate because Dick Joslyn survives. At least he survives the cult.

Caroline: 34:25

agree. I and it saved his life.

Anne: 34:31

So it seems like sexy people got out of this cult because Leslie got out too. I,

Caroline: 34:34

Yeah. Yeah,

Anne: 34:36

this was another moment that was justified by scripture. If your eye offend, you pluck it out and they were applying that to their testicles, which is pretty awful. and I guess that leads us to the biggest problem, which is. The mass suicide. so it was Bonnie Nettles dying of cancer in 1985. That could have been the, this isn't real moment, but instead they used her death to justify communication with her at a higher level. Because if it comes from that elder or elder elder member, I think they called it, it must be believed. so should we talk about how the setting of this time kind of contributed to this becoming a thing or,

Caroline: 35:16

um, it's and notable what early adopters they were, creating their website, which is still live and active today. Think Sawyer is the one maintaining it. but also that aspect made them have a close connection to conspiracy theory. this is back when conspiracy theories were like fun stuff. Like, oh, hey, there might be something else behind the ha bop comment and not Sandy Hook is a hoax, et cetera. Who, there was no Alex

Anne: 35:44

Mm-hmm.

Caroline: 35:45

stuff. It was like, who shot JFK, in the early days of the online. that definitely played a role in certainly the timing. the thought that the second thing was there that they didn't see when they bought that telescope. I felt so bad for that story guy.

Anne: 35:59

I know they return the telescope. How dare you? the two societal trends that are important are that UFO and space mania that, when the first so-called alien abductions entertainment that was growing in popularity with Star Trek. You know, they got a lot of their ideas from Star Trek, which is crazy. We've got X-Files, close Encounters of the third Kind,, star Wars. in 1968 there was a book that, I don't know if they mentioned the documentary or the podcast, I listen to Chariot of the Gods, which was putting forth the idea that aliens are the ones who gave us the pyramids and Stonehenge, something some people still believe. And then you get HaBO comment and it's just this sign. So I think if Hail Bop hadn't happened in that time period, maybe this final suicide wouldn't have happened.

Caroline: 36:43

Mm-hmm.

Anne: 36:43

also think, you know, the seventies is so, I guess not the disco aspect of it, but like outside of disco, it's so drab. Like they've got those like shitty plastic chairs for their classes, which. and it's such a contrast between like their sci-fi delusions of grandeur, like beam me up, Scotty with their crappy brown carpeting and plastic chairs that they're on.

Caroline: 37:06

Although they nice middle class houses and everything in the later years.

Anne: 37:13

and ultimately they have a mansion. That was one of my outstanding questions. How did they afford that mansion?

Caroline: 37:18

I think through and then there was also that connected guy. I think they used one or but then, When that they were earning their, keep doing like web stuff

Anne: 37:32

Yeah. So then in the late nineties, we're getting a lot of apocalypse beliefs. Do you remember the prophecies of Nostradamus were like a big thing. I remember watching History Channel specials about Nostradamus, so there's this sense of urgency that the world is ending and this is your last chance to get out. I thought those exit interviews were haunting,

Caroline: 37:50

Yeah. the I've ever seen that whole, you and everything like that. It just was so 39 to beam up.

Anne: 37:59

And they're so happy. You know, they're smiling at the idea of leaving this world and going to heaven. and just the brainwashing seems so clear in those moments. they're beaming, no pun intended, and, you know, I thought those exit interviews were a real manipulation technique. Like, you know, when you are on a diet and you tell somebody about it I feel like forcing them, or, you know, asking them maybe they weren't forced to,, sit there and explain how happy you are to die is a way to ensure that you will do it.

Caroline: 38:26

I mean, et cetera. episode three begins with a radio interview where they're like, do I look brainwashed? And the guy's like, yeah, you do. You know, like, so true.

Anne: 38:39

I almost find the eventual going along with this suicide. Less surprising though, than joining the cult to begin with. you see these UFO posters and these supposedly charismatic people in this drab town hall, and you drop your life like that shocks me. But then once you've been in this situation for decades, right, and you, you know, you think about growing up in any culture, right? Most of the people we know that we grew up with, went to college, got married, got a job, had kids, et cetera, et cetera. We almost all do what is normal in whatever our culture is and their culture, although we see it as very abnormal, they were just doing what was normal. So to me, the going along with it is less shocking than the joining to begin with.

Caroline: 39:21

which is certainly then illustrated by several of their actions, the castration being one. But obviously their eventual agreement to beam up together over a few days. but yeah, I think, When you have up everything about your, like, where do you even go and how? Oh, I did actually look up when, when Sawyer leaves, he gives him$600, which today would be$1,371 and 90 cents.

Anne: 39:49

could put down a down payment on a, an apartment, I guess get some groceries.

Caroline: 39:53

You, you for first last,

Anne: 39:55

Yeah, Well, let's talk about her Dough Marshall Applewhite, just a little bit more. I mean, is he a villain? Is he a narcissist? Is he a sociopath? Is he just misguided? man who actually believes the nonsense he was spouting? What do you think? Why not all

Caroline: 40:13

Yeah. he's all of the above.

Anne: 40:16

do you think he's charismatic?

Caroline: 40:19

some types of people. He's charismatic. I think people when he's talking to the camera, it's so interesting. I don't think I noticed the first time I watched it as much as this time, how often he contradicts himself. And it's clearly the same recording is wearing the same outfit, it's with the same backing. But he contradicts himself sometimes, almost immediately, one after the other. But you're not even really like processing what he's saying'cause you're just engaged with his eyes and his face and how engaged with you he is or appears to be,

Anne: 40:50

Yeah. It's that idea of making you feel like you're the only one in the room with those crazy eyes. I mean, to me, I don't wanna be looked at like that. Like, please avert your eyes. It's making me uncomfortable. but yeah, I guess people, some people they wanna be seen, uh, somebody talked about feeling, yeah. Somebody talked about feeling the Holy Spirit or a sense of euphoria when they looked into doe's eyes. not, not me. like that. Um.

Caroline: 41:13

experienced Walker.

Anne: 41:16

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He can look at me. I thought one interesting thing was that he, wasn't in the front row in the Christmas talent show. He sat amongst them in the back of the bus. he did seem like he was, a man of the people, even though he was the leader. so I don't know. It's just something I thought was interesting.

Caroline: 41:35

to dissect the at the same time, he's the only one in the master bedroom and he doesn't last,

Anne: 41:43

Right. He got somebody to do it for him, which is again, why I, why I question how much control did he actually have? Were other people manipulating him? know, I guess nobody knows exactly what happened in those last 48 hours. but I just, I have questions. I, I really liked Sawyer. I'm so glad he got out un castrated. And I really hope that he can find meaning in life beyond the beliefs of this cult, because I feel so bad for him that he feels like he failed because he's still alive and still has, you know, sexual desires. And I just hope he can find meaning in life.

Caroline: 42:16

totally you know, it's, it's devastating to see, the long term effect.

Anne: 42:25

That was one of my biggest doe villain moments when Frank talks about feeling humiliated because Doe made a comment about how deep his voice was, and that now decades later, he, I, I thought he had cancer, so like, I thought he recovered from throat cancer and that was the cause of the way he spoke. But I feel like it's, it's psychosomatic, doe shamed him about having a masculine voice and he tried to mask that and he still can't speak like that I so tragic.

Caroline: 42:54

totally agree. pronounced in the in younger, where he and Sawyer are the talking heads in a news interview. know, to your point as thing, maybe it's only gotten worse he hasn't fully processed,

Anne: 43:11

But it seems like he's really trying,

Caroline: 43:12

yeah,

Anne: 43:13

when he says he is going to drive around the country and he's gonna learn to have fun, and he has this kind of fragile smile. Like again, I, I hope he finds happiness too, because he seems like a sweetheart and it's just so sad. he loved that Erica and he wanted to get out with her when they were given the opportunity to go home. He wanted to leave, he wanted to hug her, which is just so normal. And, you know, I guess she was too far down that cult rabbit hole to do that. And so it, it reminded me a little bit of midnight mass. And I won't say exactly what, but the idea of religion interfering the ability to have a normal human relationship

Caroline: 43:49

It kind of when

Anne: 43:53

Okay.

Caroline: 43:53

like, I can't, She kind of like bails, they were meant to be together. I mean, I do feel like the Frank and Erica unfortunately all lost their chance,

Anne: 44:04

They don't get a gym and Pam ending, do they?

Caroline: 44:06

No,

Anne: 44:07

sad.

Caroline: 44:07

cause it wasn't

Anne: 44:09

What, do you think is the most disturbing aspect of all this?

Caroline: 44:15

is probably the most disturbing. Not, that I think she knew what was gonna eventually happen, but because it does eventually happen, it's really quite disturbing.

Anne: 44:26

Yeah. Well, I think my moment is similar to that. It's a moment that would've been totally normal, maybe even kind of cute if it didn't lead up to the biggest mass suicide on American soil, the Christmas party, there's this Christmas decor and they're baking and exchanging presents, and they're having this talent show. they're reading Jumanji, it's this weird mix of normalcy and insanity. That Has a really ominous feel because you know where it ends up.

Caroline: 44:56

a little less so now that I know that food control was a part of it, but I did write down the biggest evidence of brainwashing is 39 people having the same last meal, both food and drink,

Anne: 45:07

Yeah. I'd be so pissed if it was my last meal and it was chosen for me.

Caroline: 45:10

I

Anne: 45:11

I,

Caroline: 45:11

there's no way

Anne: 45:17

yeah,

Caroline: 45:17

good on that server. I'm sure she had a great night because this, would've been in comparison to another table of 39 people, but still as long as there was one bill.

Anne: 45:26

don't know. I've worked in restaurants and 39 people want the same dessert, you're probably in trouble. You don't have that much in the freezer necessarily. Um, I can imagine the chefs yelling at me for bringing that order back. Um,

Caroline: 45:41

you're so right.

Anne: 45:42

I also thought That stuff at the end was really at odds with their beliefs was that you're shedding human desires and transcending, like going to SeaWorld and gambling at Vegas, or I don't know if they were actually gambling but they went to Vegas. you know, like when they go out on their heaven Skate day. Oh, fun. Like Janice and Joey's day. Oh, fun. that's such a contradiction because they're having all this fun going to sea world and everything. And how does that line up with shedding their human impulses and becoming a higher being? Um, you know, that's human stuff, you know. and the other thing I thought was very upsetting that I didn't know until, I think the end, probably episode four, was that asphyxiation was involved. I assumed it was a drug overdose, which seems less viscerally horrifying to me than a plastic bag over your head. It just makes me wonder, what those last 48 hours were like, did people try to back out at the last minute? or did they all just succumb? You know, was there horror or was there just, Submission. I dunno.

Caroline: 46:45

say how much, but they could have been asleep because, you know that daughter, when her dad tried to do the same he reflexively takes the bag off, she said, right.

Anne: 46:55

Do you have any criticism of the documentary?

Caroline: 46:58

I the animation was a very weird, weird choice and vibe, I noticed, actually, I wrote this down because, so when they're all marrying Herf, which we also didn't talk about, that is super creepy.

Anne: 47:13

Weird.

Caroline: 47:13

they're when they're all getting married to Herf, and they're showing the cartoon of, two figures. But then when it switches over to the hand, getting the ring finger, the ring on its finger, it's the right hand. Not the left hand.

Anne: 47:25

Okay,

Caroline: 47:25

And I noticed this because I did that at my wedding and my, I put the ring on my husband's instead of his left hand. And I'm still embarrassed about it. And then I went to a wedding like two weeks ago. My sister-in-law did the same thing and she was horrified. I was like, don't worry, I did the same thing. So anyway,

Anne: 47:42

So your sister-in-law is in good company with you and the members of the Heavens Gate cult.

Caroline: 47:47

only the cartoon.

Anne: 47:49

Okay. Okay. Well, weird details that we haven't discussed. I, again, I to, I totally agree about the arts and animations. I just was like, come on, just. I don't know. I'd rather hear more, historians and specialists, psychologists talking about what makes these people tick than some animation. uh, weird details. The marriage, the$5 75 in cash, in case they need bus fare. I mean, star Trek, we haven't really talked about Star Trek, but like

Caroline: 48:14

I looked up their whole list. Do approved things to watch. Okay. So approved TV series, 60 Minutes. Star Trek, both TNG Ds nine and Voyager. I don't know, I've never watched Star Trek. Uh, wheel of Fortune, Chicago Hope Dark Skies, and touched by an Angel. And then they were, there was a forbidden list. They were forbidden to watch Goldeneye, island of Dr. Moreau Multiplicity and, Little House on the Prairie.

Anne: 48:45

Oh yeah. Little House in the prairie is too, like family oriented.

Caroline: 48:48

Yeah. Yeah. Borg, but, I guess that's the message. Art is up for interpretation always, I guess.

Anne: 48:58

I guess it was that hive mentality thing. Collective consciousness. I mean, it's just silly to get your religion from Star Trek. I've watched some Star Trek, only the first season. I'm, I'm like, uh, captain Kirk era because my mom and brother into it. But yeah, I've never watched any of the other ones. Um, all right. We've,

Caroline: 49:17

like Wars.

Anne: 49:22

We're Star Wars people, not Star Trek people. There is a difference. do we have any unanswered questions? I feel like most of my unanswered questions have come up. the only one that we haven't discussed is, you know, at the beginning they talk about how cults arise in times of societal stress. This is a time of societal stress and I wonder what cults are simmering under the surface is there something similar happening or is everything so spread out because of the internet that the rising of a small little sliver of a cult like this couldn't happen?

Caroline: 49:52

Yeah, I think has become the MLM aspect. because, as life becomes less and less affordable, like that's a time of high,, that's a reason for high stress. That's super exploitable,

Anne: 50:06

That's a vulnerability.

Caroline: 50:07

Yeah.

Anne: 50:07

What do you think is some of the extra horror beneath the surface? I mean, for me it was the lost relationships the families left behind the shaming of normal human sexuality.

Caroline: 50:19

I agree. you said earlier, we've used a lot of terminology that is not maybe the most, sympathetic I think we're using that again as, as you said, talk about some of these details that are pretty out there. but the, the horror beneath the surface for me, I mean, these, I wrote these quotes down of people that become susceptible, you know, situationally vulnerable, looking for a place to belong. Also Sawyer said, he was seeking something and I wanted to have a specialness, are all things everyone experiences and feels, and that

Anne: 50:57

Yeah. I think the idea that death is better than obscurity too, right? Which links into what you've just said about wanting to feel special by dying. It would've just been some silly little byline that, you know, got made, made fun of occasionally if they hadn't died, death made them iconic.

Caroline: 51:14

to add things they discuss Waco, that Herf wanted to be seen, like Koresh, at that level

Anne: 51:24

Yeah. Didn't they want the government to come kind of crashing down on them and do it for them,

Caroline: 51:28

yeah,

Anne: 51:29

they were too harmless until they killed themselves. Until they,

Caroline: 51:33

guess.

Anne: 51:34

I also think the sunk cost fallacy, and we talked about this in episode two on Sweet Bobby, that when you've put so much time into something you feel like you can't get out. And I think these people who, chose to follow Herf on this mass suicide. Probably just didn't know what else to do because they've been in this for so long. And how do you get out when you're so institutionalized? And, you know, those people who did get out seem somewhat lost, right? Like Sawyer and, Dick Joslyn, who sadly died of AIDS shortly after this. And, Frank. Yeah. what did we learn about survival other than don't join a cult, away from anyone promising

Caroline: 52:10

say right? modifying any behavior. So awareness of studies like the ashcon conforming study. Other things, I can't tell you how many times I've heard about the video where people get in the elevator, someone's facing backwards, everyone starts facing backwards. You know,, Like being aware that that is your natural tendency, is the first way to avoid it.

Anne: 52:31

I wonder if they should be adding psychological studies on conformity to high school classes that study media bias and fake news and stuff like that. As part of a critical literacy, because it's important to know about the ash conformity study and, um, what is the, is it something prison experiment? Yes. Not Stanford. Stanford Prison Experiment. Um, yeah. All right. do you have a palate cleanser?

Caroline: 52:57

my kids and I, I don't know if I've mentioned before that my kids and I watch TikTok at night. but do you Annie, how big of a deal is Ozzy

Anne: 53:05

I.

Caroline: 53:05

over there? Ozzy man reviews.

Anne: 53:08

I have no idea what you're talking about, not on TikTok, so yeah,

Caroline: 53:12

but he didn't start on TikTok. He's star or whatever. But anyway, there's a guy in Australia called Ozzy Man. Reviews. His handles are Ozzy man reviews. We'll link it. and he basically takes interactions with animals that people send him, and he does voiceover for it. and he, I think his most famous one came out around Christmas time. It's of a guy at a power plant area trying to save a koala. and so he does the voice of the koala, like there's a guy talking to an animal and he's the animal responding and they're hilarious.

Anne: 53:42

this sounds like my jam. I've gotta look this guy up.

Caroline: 53:44

Okay.

Anne: 53:45

Animals, Australian accents, humor, like.

Caroline: 53:49

things on TikTok. There's so one of my children is just like, okay, can we get to Ozzy man? Like, it's all he wants to watch

Anne: 53:58

I will check it out. Okay. If you like this, Caroline already mentioned, sounds like a cult. The podcast, I was gonna mention that as well, the movie also a Mike Flanagan movie, Dr. Sleep. And this is about a very evil cult living, a nomadic lifestyle. And they're driving around and camping, which just sort of reminded me of the beginning, at least of Heaven's Gate. Spoiler warning for literally the most traumatizing child death I've ever witnessed on films. So skip that scene if that's a problem for you. It was a problem for me. obviously Star Trek and the Sound of Music, the X-Files, which came up last week because of re's poster in midnight mass, under the banner of Heaven, I may have mentioned before, is a true crime nonfiction and TV show meets religion. So that was really interesting. The Handmaid's Tale. The novel is fantastic. In addition to the TV show, parable The Sower by Octavia Butler is about dystopian, apocalyptic situation, but also the formation of a new religion. The horror film Midsummer has a lot of parallels to this. the novel in The Clearing, which is a thriller, like a fictionalized version of the Australian called the Family. There's also a TV show with Guy Pierce and Miranda Otto, tower of Babylon by Ted Chang, which is I think the third short story I've recommended by him. It's about a society that over the course of hundreds and hundreds of years, attempts to build a tower to heaven, which they believe is a real place in the sky. And my last recommendation is a nonfiction psychology book called The Boy Who was raised as a dog I read this for a better understanding of the impact of childhood trauma and the author is a psychologist who worked with kids from the branch Davidian cults. And yeah, it just talks about psychology of trauma and it's a really fascinating book. So those are my recommendations. Do you wanna add anything?

Caroline: 55:42

as we were did you say yellow jackets?

Anne: 55:45

No, I didn't, but let's add it. I love yellow jackets.

Caroline: 55:48

there's a lot about group think, classic books of j of Conformity and group

Anne: 55:56

absolutely.

Caroline: 55:56

and the dangers of that. And Yellow Jackets also came to my mind. totally. if cults are your are so many that I wanna recommend, but I wanna say like, we are definitely going to cover these at some point. but, you know, highly recommend the vow. Love has won. Actually I would put Love has won a number one, other cults that have a lot, going on and the way down. But like I said, we are gonna cover all of those at some point.

Anne: 56:21

Great. Well, our next recommendation is Carrie by Stephen King. We've been talking about this for a few episodes now. So this was coming up regardless, but I think it really ties in well with the sexual shame that these cult members were made to feel.

Caroline: 56:34

Can't wait

Anne: 56:34

say something. Thanks for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Check us out on Instagram at Drawn to Darkness Pod. Tell a friend, write a review on iTunes and if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Facebook at Nancy Ano Art and Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify. Oh no, my pillow for it.

Caroline: 57:16

booth quotes.

Anne: 57:19

my pillow part.

Caroline: 57:21

Oh my is hilarious.